We Sit Down With 2BAR Spirits Founder Nathan Kaiser!

Welcome And Guest Name Chaos

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to the Whiskey Chasers, where we talk about our passion for whiskey and its history, either amongst ourselves or while interviewing distilleries. Oh, while enjoying a glass. I'm Steve. I'm Nick, and I'm Chris. Please enjoy responsibly while enjoying this week's episode of The Whiskey Chasers. Welcome to the Whiskey Chasers, everybody. Uh, we are here with Nick Kaiser of Two Bar. Nick? Nathan. Nathan. Nick's here too, but he's not the Kaiser. Nathan Kaiser. That's two strikes. We got the last name wrong. Now we have the first name wrong. I'm bad at names today. Nathan Kaiser of Tube Bar Spirits out in Seattle. That's so funny. You got you're this is awesome. We're pros. Don't forget, we're professionals.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

My grandfather's turning in his grave with how you pronounce my last name. And then, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Well, welcome. Speaking of your grandfather and Kaiser, Kaiser's German. Am I right?

unknown 1:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Okay, yeah. Very much so.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

So if I think of Germans coming over to America, we're talking whiskey, sorry, jumping into the whiskey. We're talking Germans coming over and creating bourbon. That doesn't seem normal for Germans.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

You're also in Texas.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, and you're also in Texas. So this seems this seems like a fun little match of trying to figure out what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Well,

Two Bar Ranch Roots In Texas

SPEAKER_03 1:36

okay, so there's a few things here. Number one, the name two bar comes from my family's ranch in South Texas. So this is one of our original labels, and you can see the logo has the two and then the two bars, right? The double play. So this is an homage to that family history and heritage. Supposedly they used to moonshine back in the day, but we've never found a still or anything, right? But they would talk about it. But that's most of everybody everywhere. Like anybody who says that they found a fucking recipe in their great-grandmother's credenza, I want to FedEx them like a snow shovel for the bullshit that they're shoveling, you know? Like they didn't write that shit down and they would use whatever they could find to pay the bills, right? They weren't like, oh, is that organic uh GMO, free GMO free corn? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

They just wanted to make white lightning.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Yeah, well, they they were just trying to make something, and most likely they were trying to make some money to feed the family, right? But this is an homage to that. Like, as my grandfather would say, I'm gonna get a little closer here. So he'd be like, Those are city boy hands, you know, uh, no calluses on them. Uh so I I I I I shine, I don't ranch, right? But yeah, so I this is my homage to that. And like actually, so there's a photo there of my grandfather holding my father as a toddler. And I tried to recreate that photo years later with my youngest son, and we tried to fly down there. We flew down there, but it was like planes, trains, and automobiles. I saw John Candy dressed as the devil. That's how that trip went. You know, that's an old archival reference. And uh we get down there, and I'm holding my son, and my wife goes, I can't take the photo. And I go, What do you mean? We're like, this is like days to get here, and it should be like hours. And she goes, I can't take it because you don't fucking got it. And I was like, God, damn it.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Something you never knew.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Like that guy never knew a day of rest, right? This guy knows a lot, so that's the little history behind the name. So this is, you know, I really adore that guy. I adore all my grandmother, all of them. So this is this is my trying to pass on a little bit of the family heritage and history, if you will. But it's yeah, they didn't they're the I created it from scratch in Seattle. It's like that old uh was that old uh salsa commercial made in New York City, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

That is an old commercial, but that's another old reference.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Oh man, I've got I've got hold on, I got like a you know, I got a Rolodex of them. Let me just pull this out and just kind of go.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

So your family,

Why Seattle And Why Bourbon

SPEAKER_01 4:31

your heritage is from Texas. What what made you kind of gravitate towards Seattle, not just Seattle, but in Seattle to become the first distillery in Seattle to make bourbon?

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Right. So met a girl, but I I've moved around a lot, so there will be no quiz. But born in Austin, Houston, Phoenix, and then Seattle's young man, and then I moved back to Austin for a number of years, and then Manhattan, and then back to Seattle and met a girl. I was looking to move back to Texas, and I go, hey, honey, now that we're, you know, what if we move down? And she goes, Who with? And I was like, Mother.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

That answers that.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

And uh I really like her. We just hit our 20-year anniversary, so it's working, but there's no moving to Texas, unfortunately. But so you have two little boys, right, Chris? I have three, and underneath the birthing table for all three boys is Texas soil from the ranch. So I asked them, you know, what are you? They're like, Well, we're, you know, sixth generation Chinese American, which is pretty cool. And they're like, Well, what are you? And they're like, Well, we're American. And I go, What are ya? And they go, Texan.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

That's awesome. So they're born on Texas soil, technically.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Over Texas soil. Yeah, the doctor was like, This isn't, this isn't uh sanitary. I was like, it's hermetically sealed. Leave me alone.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

It's organic, it's fine. It's in the mason jar.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

And then and then I love bourbon and I wanted to get out of tech, and that's why I started two bar. And when I started it, I had no idea what I was doing, right? I mean, I'd never worked retail, I'd never worked in a bar or restaurant. I didn't even know how distribution worked. Um, so I can't I did know though, I have a microbiology degree, and I do know how to do that kind of stuff, and everything else I've had to learn on the fly, and it's been an amazing journey. Sometimes insane, or maybe always insane. You've seen it just a glimpse of my humor or my approach to life. Uh, but it's been so fun, and it's just been an amazing gift to be able to do this.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Wait, sorry, you came from tech, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

And you guys started what around roughly when again?

SPEAKER_03 6:48

We I the business started in we opened in 2012.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

So sorry, I my brain, I don't know about you guys, my brain goes to other uh interviews.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Oh, we're supposed to be talking to uh Nate Kiesmer. Oh my bad.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Right. Well, so my my brain goes to other distilleries or interviews that we've done around that time frame. There's quite a few people that came out of the tech world to start distilling. And I I don't know what the draw is. I just found that to be fascinating. That that idea that there's yet another pattern, another person of that pattern of leaving tech to start distilling. But but to your to you, to bar, you guys are doing it the right way. Whereas I don't know that we could say that about others that we've come across that left the technology world uh and and going into distilling.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

I think to your point, I personally think I'm doing it the right way, of course. I would say I am not gonna tell other people how to do it, right? Like, um, if you want to source all of your whiskey from a big producer back east or Kentucky or you know, Indiana, um, you have the right to do it, but it's not gonna be truly unique for the consumer, and your story's bullshit. Um,

Bootstrapping Versus Big Money Distilling

SPEAKER_03 8:05

and your costs are going to be higher, ironically. But I will say, like, okay, so let's be very frank, a lot of people got into this business because 10 to 12 years ago, the multiples on an exit were massive, monstrous, right? You're looking at like 10x Rev and 10x inventory, and the amount of money that was sucked into this business via debt and equity would blow your mind. Because they were all looking like everybody I talked to was like, oh, I'm gonna be exiting in three years and we'll pull back, you know, I'll probably my take will be $300 million. Um, do you know how many people cash a $300 million check? Yeah. And I was I'm a nut, right? I'm a little crazy. I I think I think a little differently. Um, I never wanted to exit. I don't want to exit. I want to build this because I like building, which is also why we're kind of small. Like, you know, the number of distilleries that I know now that raise 20 to 40 million in equity, right? And that have 10, 20, or 30 million plus in debt, and are my revenue, or maybe even a little bit bigger than me, is probably the majority of the players that you see out there. And um, you know, we have debt, but it's like a fraction of that. And the amount of equity I raise is not even a 40th of that, right? So we I bootstrapped it, and which in sometimes was so brutal, right? I mean, we were running 22 hours a day, five days a week in the early days, with five guys doing multiple shifts, right? But my original chilling system, chiller for the still, was you know, those troughs you can buy, like a tractor supply or any of the farm supply places was one of those water troughs with a sump pump in it, pumping water. Well, it gets worse, pumping water to a car radiator with one of those metal box fans, you know, with the V bottom upside down with duct tape to it, so it would blow directly onto that. That's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

That's fantastic. I love it. Hey, it worked, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Yeah, yeah. I it worked, and but it wasn't purdy, you know, it was not pretty. I had a guy walk in, he started with like 60 million dollars of his dad's money, another distillery. He's dressed in nines, you know, dressed to the nines. He got the tucks and stuff, and I was like, What the fuck, man? And he walks in and we had a mash paddle with wooden that a buddy of mine had carved, right? And we were hand mixing the match. We were so dumb, so dumb, so dumb. And he walks in and he goes, You are fucked. And I looked at him back and I put my hand right in his chest. I was like, You are right.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Thanks for telling me.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

And yeah, I mean, tell me what something I don't know, like surprise me, you know. And he got kicked out of the business. They sold for a fraction of what they raised, and now I think they're for sale for a fraction of that again, right? Because money does not equal product quality or you know, flavor or uniqueness. It'll equals the ability to spend a lot of money. And we don't spend money because we haven't had the ability to. Like I have two people that work for me, uh, Maddie Kelly and Sony Watson, distiller and assistant distiller. And Sony also does events, they're also now part equity holders, and we fucking make it, man. We were in about 20 states and we're shipping by the palette, slow and steady, and just trying to build something from scratch because it's so much easier. That's not true. It's better to build this way for the long term than to go like this, and then as soon as you run out of money and you're paying for placements on shelves or on the back bar, and it goes back like this. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Yeah, staying power. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Yeah, you know, you there's it's there's I uh okay. So my other joke I tell is uh it's good that I attempted to date a lot in high school and college because I got used to rejection early. My wife's like, where does that put me? And I was like, You're the one who saw the potential the potential. You rolled the dice. She goes, she goes, God damn it, I've been looking for Nate Blanquist this whole time.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

So with with getting started, so you you didn't have any clear spirits or

From Vodka To 53 Gallon Barrels

SPEAKER_00 12:40

anything. So did you start out with small big? Oh, you did, okay. And you just since got rid of those, or do you see that? Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Like we had we had a vodka, which I discontinued, and a moonshine, which we still do for shits and giggles, but it's not like you know, we don't push it, it's just for fun. It's you know, it's really good, blah, blah, blah. I love it. Uh, a lot of people like it, but it's not our main say. Like, I realized early that clear spirits, it's so hard to compete, it's a it's a race to the bottom, right? And like the vodka was in Trader Joe's, we were doing well, and I killed it. And everybody was pissed. And I was like, look, I don't want to compete on vodka, right? I want to make bourbon.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

You want to make bourbons plain and simple. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 13:25

Yeah, I can compete in bourbon. I can't compete on clear spirits, I don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah, I don't believe it. And so that's how you got started. That's how you were able to bring in some money at the beginning. Do you also a little bit? A little bit, yeah. Do you also use the small barrels or do you use 53 gallons?

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Or we started in 15s, moved to 30s, and now everything is over four years in 53s.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

That's okay. That's a true true craft distillery. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

So do oh yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Your your guys' like baseline that you offer that I I can tell is like an 80-proof uh six-grain mash bill, which I've got questions. But is that kind of what you guys got started with? Or was it something other than that that you guys kind of got your start with and then built towards the the baseline offering?

SPEAKER_03 14:14

We had for nine of our first 12 years one skew, and it was a hundred-proof bourbon. All and all of our bourbon is the same mash bill, right? So we do one thing every day, and then we age it for over four years, and then we finish it the four different ways, give or take, right? So the 80 proof we launched in 21, I believe. And that's when we launched the other two, the wine barrel and amaretto barrel finished options. But the bottle and bond started as bourbon, and then we got it to two years, became straight bourbon, and then we got it to four years, became bottled and bond, and that's when we released everything else. But our flagship is that 80 proof, but everything else is uh like kind of our premium, you know, premium offerings, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

I like that concept. It's it's real like no nonsense, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

And and we've we've talked to several craft distilleries that are starting up, and when they hit that that bottled and bond mark that they could start releasing that, they're like, that's that's my baby. That's that's the thing I was working towards that I'm the most proud of. But to hear you guys say, we always did 100 proof, we just kind of worked our way towards that. It's not something they did that you guys did different. That I'm like, why why doesn't anyone else think about it? It's kind of an interesting way of doing it. Why don't you do that?

SPEAKER_03 15:29

I think because everybody else has had a lot more money than I did.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

That's fair. So you said um you have three sons, right? I think they're mine, yeah. As far as you know, cool. Um, so was there just not enough women in your life? Is that why you decided you needed the women production facility? Careful answer, they might they might listen. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

I see the thought process going.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

All right. And also to have a joke about it, and I got I got okay. I'm gonna tell it. So fuck it. I had a uh this group came in to they were a distributor from another state, right? And they were in town, they wanted to meet, and they're like, Oh my god, you have why do you have two women distillers? And I was like, Yeah, that's our production team. And they're like, why? And I was like, so I could pay them less. I hope they like. They're on the team because they're fucking rock stars, right? Like, I I make these. This is that was a joke, and I told them that joke, and they thought it was funny. And that, you know, like so they're now equity holders. That's awesome. They get it fucking done, right? I don't need they I've gone through a lot of people that have worked here, right? I am an easy person, but a hard boss, right? Like, I uh have high expectations, I'm not gonna coddle. I had I fired one guy on his first within his first 15 minutes of move of coming in, right? And well, you know, for him, it was a safety thing, and he wasn't listening to the like there's stuff in here that will maim the human body, right? Your mill, your mash louder ton, if you've got you when you have the auger or the uh the mash paddle going in there, it doesn't care about human flesh, right? And I said, if you don't take this seriously, I need well, I said, Hey, look, I want this is what I want you to do. They you are the most important asset in here. I can repair anything that is made of metal, but repairing flesh is really hard, right? Um and I was like, and then he fucking didn't listen. You know how it goes. And I go, you're fired. And he goes, I just started. I was like, dude, and that's why you're gone. Because the number one rule, safety. Because I mean, can you imagine that on your conscience if somebody got hurt? Yeah, no, you don't know. We've never had anybody hurt. Well, okay, the only person who's been hurt has been me. Because in Washington State we have L and I, labor and industries, and they're like, if you're an owner, we don't give a fuck if you get hurt. And I was like, good, I'm the guy. You know, almost cut this thumb off once. Yeah, that's a win.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Is that live? Yeah, sure. I'll check it out.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Yeah. My the thing is the nervous system never settled down, as you can tell. But uh, you know, driving to the uh hospital with my hand out the, you know, to keep the blood flow from increasing. So I'm driving with the window and it's bleeding down my arm anyway. Loved it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

So did did they start with you? Or they're the original production team? Okay, no. Did they come up with the six-grain mash bill?

The Six Grain Mash Bill Bet

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Or is that we came up with that at the beginning. And like the thing with whiskey, um, is that you have to make a bet, right? You can't go, well, let's try this one, and then let's try this one, and then let's try that one. You don't fucking have time, right? If you're gonna lay it down, you have to lay it down. And we did a lot of research and we learned this from our beer friends is that play with the mash bill. So it's majority corn, a touch of wheat, and four different malted barleys, a C120, C150, chocolate malt, and two row.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

And that's like the and uh you guys got, I think the hundredproof, right? The bird, the bond that has a lot of chocolate notes on it, I think, right? And you have to make the bet. You cannot start a business in fucking dilly dolly, right? You just have to bet. And you know, I was you know, like the I'm my Heisman is pathetic, but you gotta like, you know, you gotta go for it.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah, it's a gamble. Yeah. I was thinking your mash bill. Is you you mentioned beer, uh, you talk to your beer friends. Your your mash bill is not normal to the whiskey world in the sense of no chocolate malted barley. That that is just slowly kind of becoming more in into the whiskey world. But then you talk uh two-row barley. That's big and like was big for a very long time in Indian single malt that kind of slowly got its way into America through uh American single malt. But there's not a ton of uh bourbons out there that are like distilleries producing bourbon that even look at two row or think about two row or even go as far as to say ours is four row versus two row or whatever it may be. Like how where did that come about? Like, where did you guys go? Oh, barley. Barley makes sense. Let's find the different kinds of barley to use.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

One, it has so much diversity in the flavor profile, the four different ones specifically, right? That was key. Two, it also allows for the conversion of starch to sugar during the conversion process, and it's natural. So we, you know, we don't, you know, enzymes or anything. So we keep it super simple. So grain in, bourbon out, and then the C120 and the C150 was like that too, because it gave a nice little hint, like the sharpness to it. Uh, the chocolate is the chocolate notes and kind of like the unami, if you will, not sweet per se, but the that, and then the C120 or sorry, the two-row also has a lot of natural sugars to just help the entire fermentation process. Also, it helps with the loudering because you get the husks in there as well, and that helps create the kind of the filter matrix as you're loudering the the wart through the grain. So yeah, and we went for it and it seemed to well one first and foremost, let's back up. What do you guys think of the bourbon? Does it fucking suck? Is it great? Doesn't it cure cancer? I know that.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

So it's uh you see it's drinking. Yeah, we we so we we started with the 80 proof because we I thought, I think a lot of us thought that was your baseline, what you started with, not realizing it was a hundred proof that you started with. Uh we We've we tried this with uh another guy from the club a couple months ago, a couple of weeks ago. And we all said we we tried everything and then tried the bottle of the bond and all went, Oh my gosh, why is this not the baseline? Like this is amazing. Like the the flavors that you get out of that, what what the heck is happening? But it makes sense that if that's what you guys started with, you guys kept with that, just kept increasing the age and then said, Oh, let's do bottle of the bond with this. That uh if if that was your baseline offering, uh sign me up. That yeah, that I mean everything you guys do is something to be proud of. Yeah, it's got so much flavor, and it makes more sense why.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Well, and the chocolate notes, um, we actually discussed that a few weeks ago. So it's interesting to hear, you know, that we were kind of on the right track with that. But it does have a lot of really great um kind of man, what's the word that I'm trying to think of now? But it's it's well, we talked about it, but it's it's the the dry cocoa notes, kind of is what I get. Like cocoa niche? Yeah. That dry cocoa, you know what I mean? Or cacao, the fancy way you say it. But the 80 proof, it was it was like, okay, you know, this is a good like knock around.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

Steve pronounce it.

unknown 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

I call it cocoa, but cacao, chocolate, chocolate. I don't know. It's a good knock around bottle, but this uh bottle and bond is where you start to see, like, oh, there's some, there's some um and it's so smooth at like it's just the smooth at a hundred proof.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

I love it when people are like, you should try my 100 proof, it's so smooth. And I was like, This tastes like ethanol, like this tastes, you know, this tastes like gasoline. Try this one, and they're like, Oh, okay, yeah, that's really good, you know. And then they walk away.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

This is it the right proof. What I love is we we've we've discussed this before in the podcast with proof, it increases the flavor, it increases the moment of you going, okay, I have to parse out proof versus flavor. There, there's opportunity for more, but I have to think about what I'm drinking. Then you add in bottle de bond, which is a whole different animal of what you can work with to put this into a bottle. And you're like, okay, now I have this, and it's a funnel for intensity between the flavor that I have to look for versus what's already there, because I'm working with I'm working with so little to begin with. Um, we're on the parameters about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Wait, what are we talking about?

unknown 24:18

No.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Right. Right. You're you're working with so little, like parameter-wise to produce this that it it almost increases that flavor aspect to begin with. And then you add in the proof and you're like, wow, there's there's more to this than what I thought. It doesn't pack a punch proof-wise, but it packs a punch flavor-wise. Flavor wise, yeah. On the flavor, on the palette, yeah. Yeah, all of us tried it and we're like, oh my gosh, I the 80 proof was good, but if only it could have this, you know, if only it had this like flavor for it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

And it doesn't need to because that's what the bottle and bond has, guys. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

No, I we uh completely agree. The bottle and bond bottle is by far better and it's fantastic, it's heavenly.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah, it's so good. So, like, this is where the business side of it all is fascinating, right?

Proof, Flavor, And What Actually Sells

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Because the bottle and bond for us, like it, I love it, right? It's my baby, it was our first one. But the 80-proof, to your point, right, is the same whiskey, but it's a little more diluted, right? The proofing process, and you lose a lot of that flavor, but it also, you know, for in this community here, of course it's 100 proof, right? Like, but the general community where you make your money as a distillery, as a supplier, as a producer, is at that 80 proof one, right? Because then you're shipping that by the palate, and that's how you make money, right? I love the 80 proof. It's like, you know, on my go-to, it's my breakfast and cereal, right? It's yeah, no, just kidding. Um, it's your daily driver, though. I'm not kidding, never mind. Um, but the bond, you know, the the flavor on that is so it's a full flavored, super smooth sipping, underproof bourbon. And that is not a lot out there to my that I've seen, right? Um, and I love it. I love it. And the fact that we started with it is just so I don't know why. I think we want, oh, that's right. We want it to be different than everybody, right? And if you're the same thing that everybody else is doing, oh look, I sourced my shit from Indiana, but look how cool my label is. It has my dog on it. Look at that marketing. Yeah, yeah, sorry, that's really inappropriate too. But yeah, so we want it to be different and get out there. And um, I I think it's working for us, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

I think it is too. And I I we we constantly have to remind ourselves on the podcast that uh we started at that 80-proof. It's not that no one doesn't start there. We all start at that proof point, and and at some point we get tired with the idea of oh, I have to have 10 drinks to get that that flavor profile that I'm looking for. Okay, let's increase it to 100 proof. Now I have to drink less to get that same flavor. But we again we we tend to forget where we came from, and that 80 proof is where a lot of people start. They're they're not, they don't want a punch in the throat, they really they just want something friendly. There's a lot of beginners that that need you need an 80 80 proof bottle. And and for them, that 80 proof, they try that and they go, Whoa, holy cow, what is going on? Yeah, that's a lot of flavor. There's there's so much flavor happening in this one compared to the other stuff I've had at 80 proof. What I don't know if I like this. That's we we get that a lot with for craft distilleries of like, oh, so much flavor going on.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

I uh okay, so I was doing uh work with I mean was it a year and a half ago, and you know, it's 9 a.m. in the morning, and we stop in at this awesome dive bar. I love, I love a good dive bar, but 9 a.m. is even a little early for me to hit the dive bar. And uh the owner, proprietor, bartender says, Well, can I pour my, you know, can I pour my uh my regulars on it? And I was like, God damn it, here we go. And they're they're on their second double at 9 a.m. Right. And then in and in their in their, you know, like one, um, these are great guys, right? And I'm sure they just got off a shift. So this I I hope, right? Um, I I love these guys so much. And they they were sipping it and they're drinking, you know, like a crown or something like that, right? And they're like, oh my, what is this? And I was like, that's called flavor, gentlemen. It's called flavor. Needless to say, I did not get the account. I they did not pick it up.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Yeah, you you need an easy going bottle. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, and uh, and a good one to boost. You need accessible, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Accessible, accessible, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

And I think in today's today's world, we uh we talked about this the other another podcast episode ago about how the the big NDPs are starting to they're they're they're gonna see a decline in what they can put out versus what it we're getting to that point in the bourbon world where it's getting more expensive, you're not gonna find as much, the demand is going down, but I have a feeling we're gonna start to see more people go after the craft because it's around and because they're going, okay, let me give this a shot. And because you guys have gone through the muck. I mean, you went through trying to do your own mash with your own paddles. I mean, you you've gone through all of it.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

It was brutal.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

You've gone through all of that where now it's like, oh, what do you mean? What do you what's the downcline? What do you mean? We're through this.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

They're persevering through through the you know the economy and and and and the the the way the where the bourbon world is at right now. And they're artisans, and I think people are starting to realize that too, that they're artisans uh that are in the craft.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

I tell people, oh, sorry, I didn't mean my apologies. Um, I tell people they're gonna be blown away. One, I agree with everything, I think they're gonna be blown away by the quality of different whiskies that are out there and all liquors, frankly, and the uniqueness of the flavor profile, right? Um, and I tell people like craft beer blew up because big beer wasn't really that great, right? Like I still drink in the summer, right? A very light, you know, pale ale made from rice every once in a while. All good, you know, and but a lot of the big whiskey was not bad, man. It's pretty fucking good, but it's not you, it's not very unique by its nature and by its flavor profile, right? But like it's not like I mean, there's some really I mean Heaven Hill make Buffalo, like all these are solid whiskeys. You may not like them, but they're all really well made, and they, as uh AA can attest, they were really easy to drink, right? You got a lot of AA members because that shit was pretty good. Um that's probably a really bad joke. Holy fuck.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

It's one I appreciate. We we can appreciate another thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

And in craft, something that's kind of bigger now as people are trying to come up with something unique and do something different, is finishings. And you've

Wine Barrel Finish And Dialing Proof

SPEAKER_00 31:02

got a couple of good ones here. So you've got a a red wine finish. Any particular kind of red wine is just a red blend. What is that?

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah, most people most people state it, they're very proud. Like California red, or or we're going with a cab, or we're going with uh whatever it may be, but you guys just do red wine barrel finish.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Yeah, and I okay, so I think I fucked up on that one. Okay. Um sorry to call you out. Oh no, I uh obviously I'm my self-esteem is okay. Okay, good. You know, good, good. Um weather the storm. I like so what we did was I wanted to use a blend of like bold red barrels when making it. Um, and we work with a winery just north of us in Woodenville, whisk Woodenville called uh uh Sparkman, right? But I think by just calling it wine barrel finished, it was too amorphous for the consumers. It's our it's one it's like it goes bottle and bomb, then the wine barrel is my second favorite, and then uh the rest. And like, but it's our least top selling because I think I misnamed it, frankly. Really?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Like if I had yeah, I mean sorry, it's your it's your least top selling.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

That's what I'm it's my lowest selling product. That's the surprising product. That was my marketing ease. What do you think? What? Hold on, hold on. I actually saved a bullshit uh shovel for myself on that one, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

That's crazy. We I I for me the wine finish was my favorite. Oh for me, that was number one with the with the uh the bottom bond being number two. Pretty close though. They were they were pretty tied up.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

It's well, it's not that savory notes, it's almost like uh Manhattan at 90 proof, right? It's like a cocky. It's an easy man's Manhattan, right? You just pour it in, maybe an ice cube, uh, maybe a cherry, and you're and it's done. And it's very it's not like over the top, right, or anything like that. It's fucking delicious. Um, I think it's going to be my 20-year sleeper hit.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

There you go. So are you thinking about changing the changing that name on or are you just gonna keep stick with the red wine finish?

SPEAKER_03 33:15

Fuck it, man. I'm sticking with it.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

You're already in. So what's interesting is uh there's only been, at least in my opinion, there's only been one other company that we have had. Uh it's not a distillery, it's a brand, out of California that does wine finishes. They're a winery that does finishings in their their barrels. I think they store some Tennessee, maybe in something like that. Um Splinter Group, right? Yeah, Splinter Group. That they they do what you're what you're describing, this whole idea of I have a Manhattan in a glass, you just have to pour ice on it or put ice in it, or whatever you want. Yeah, yeah. Um, we we've had so many uh listeners that uh have tried what they can get from Splinter Group and they're going, holy cow. This is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

That's gonna be so good.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

This is the this is probably the only other bottle that I've had that gives off that same vibe. Yeah, that same vibe, that same one of like, what more are we doing? Like, what is happening? Like, why can't more people do this? Where it's it it it just blends so it it it pairs so well. You're not forgetting the bourbon and you're not forgetting the wine.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

You get both, yes, they're showcasing each other, yes, and that's so hard to do. Not the bastard stepchild, it's like the actual child. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yep, yeah. And and it's it's it's it's getting that without blending wine with bourbon.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

It's oh yeah, no, no, no, there's no wine, it's just from the pure from the barrel, right? But I also think it's because it's in there for about a year now. I was doing how long you were yeah, so four years in our in our original barrel or more, depending, and then a year plus plus in the wine barrel. So that gives it really time to pull from the barrel and to mix. And I think like because it's so good, man. Oh, it's like it's almost a savory whiskey, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

And what's crazy to me is uh again, we are we we like our proof, we like anything above a hundred, that's like the sweet spot. Having the wine finish at 80, 90, 90, okay at 90 for us was like, are you are you sure? Well what what what uh but it was right, yeah. It's the right proof. Like, is it right? But when we saw it, like are we positive this is gonna be okay?

SPEAKER_02 35:36

What the heck? Was that something that you guys tried and determined the proof on? Okay, I was wondering if it was a trial idea.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

If you go so when you're doing the blending, or not blending, the finishing, you have to be careful. Uh too high, you can get some of the astringent notes from the wine and or even the amaretto barrel, and too low, and it becomes diluted out. Um, and almost that's the word I'm looking for here. Uh flat. It becomes kind of flat, right? And you want the flavors to actually come across. It's a it's a fun one. You can't, you know, theoretically, you could go like, you know, nine, you know, there's room to play, it's not just at 90. That was how we liked it. But yeah, you gotta, I think you have to be careful. I mean, you not to say you can't do one at like a frickin' 120 plus barrel strength, right? And it can still be super good. But if you want it good every time and you want it consistent, you you want to be following, you know, you want to be on the line.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Steve talked about uniqueness and this idea of okay, distilleries have to, we we have to try to figure out how to be unique. Let's start finishing. We have distilleries now, they're like, oh, well, you know, finishing's kind of out, uh out within the cliche world of like it's not popular as much. We we exhausted that. Let's go into mash bills. You guys started with a unique mash bill going into finishing. Do you ever wonder did our unique uh the six-grain mash bill?

SPEAKER_03 37:08

Yeah, couldn't we pick a better one or was that the right one? No, I don't have any nope, nope. So did it. I'm just not bright enough to have big questions like that.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Did it did you ever think ahead and go, oh, think ahead. Did you ever think would a four-grain fit better with a finish? Or you know, what could fit better with a finish? You know, you talked about if we if we increase the proof, it becomes more stringent and more uh um oaky, I guess, more woody, I I guess might be a better idea of what you might be getting at. You ever think that maybe uh a different mash bill could play more better with that?

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Yeah, but that fucking ship is sailed.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

I mean, I I'm joking, but it's true, right? I mean, you know, if you play the wulda, shoulda, coulda game, you'll not you're not looking forward. And if I change my mash bill, that means I could lose a significant percentage of my customer base. Right. Uh will change the whiskey. Yeah. And at some point, you just fucking gotta like, you know, you've the bet has been made, right? You've gone all in at the table, and you're either gonna win the hand or you're gonna lose it. You know, very rarely do you, you know, chop the pot. Um, so do I wonder? I mean, I'm sure I have at times, but fuck man, I love what I've done. I'm proud of what I've done, and I'm willing to commit to it. And uh, you know, made a lot of mistakes in the business. The six-grain mash bill was not one of them.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Um, not upset with that answer at all.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

I respect the hell out of that. Yeah, and and I think that just shows the fact that you're doubling down on everything that's kind of made you unique and who you are as a company. It just goes to show you that, and and honestly, it goes back to why we like craft distilleries so much because it it's just it would be like asking Van Gogh, have you ever thought about painting it a different way? Well, fuck you, dude. Like this is how I painted it, take it or leave it. And I think it's pretty damn good, you know. And I I love that unapologetic kind of stance that you have.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

I've never been put in the same, in the same uh in even in the same conversation as Van Gogh as Van Gogh. I usually get put in the same conversation as those that ride the short bus. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

There you go. I always think uh, yeah, I mean, obviously the big guys, you know, it's different, but when you're talking about somebody who like you had started a company, a distillery, uh, you know, from the ground, like you said, bootstrapped it. Uh, I mean, if you're not an artist, then you you you wouldn't be here. You know what I mean? Like you just wouldn't. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

And I love the answer of the unapologetic, we're not changing. This is who I am. We we look at uh we we've had a decline before in history for bourbon, and then we got a bourbon boom, and the one that took off was Buffalo Trace. Buffalo Trace gives the middle finger to everyone and said, We're not gonna tell you what we do. We're not gonna tell you the mashable. It's Buffalo Trace number one, mash bill number one, mashable number two. We're not gonna share. Whereas you gotta you guys two bar that says, No, this is what we do. This is the six-grain mash bill.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

A little bit more transparent.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

And out of that six-grain mash bill, we are gonna give you finishings, but we're going to figure out the finishings that fit well proof-wise. Time proof, we're gonna give that to you where everything fits well. You know, we go into it with a six-grain mash bill. You know that we have a red wine finish. This is what you get. And and we're not sad, we're not upset, we're not mad, we're happy with what we put out. This is what we would drink. It is good. Yeah, it's so it works out. There's there's too many distillers out there that's like, well, can we feed the masses? And what can we feed them without really telling them what's going out there?

SPEAKER_03 40:58

Those are I there there may be a correlation with those and the ones that raise a god-awful shit ton of money, right? Um there's there's a correlation there, but I think, you know, it's just I don't want to do what everybody else is doing. I don't want, you know, we do it our way, and we're proud of it. And if it here's the good thing is like the community is large enough that you you may not like our bourbon, but at least you can everyone generally realizes it's well made. You can appreciate it. And I'm we're not we're not for everybody, right? Like, and that's okay. Um, and that's why this business is slow and steady, right? Because it's like you just gotta get people to try it, and if they like it, win. If they don't, uh, you know, like I still get people that are like, my neighbors are like, Oh, you want a distillery? And I was like, God damn it, I'm I gotta work at this. I know, and then I meet people for the first time and they're like, Oh man, I've been drinking two-bar with my family for 10 years, you know? And I remember when it, dude, it was tough, man. You know, bootstrapping a whiskey distillery is up there with like a land war in Asia. It's just dumb. And uh, or going up against a Sicilian when life is on the line. And uh I was like, so I started two bar, I was no longer at my tech job. My wife just got let go, and we just had our second baby, right? Two within 21 months. So nope and I saw the bills, oh, you know, man, you only live once, right? And um it was I I don't, I, I don't, I don't think I could do that again, right? Like I just I'm older, I don't have that energy, but it was so hard. Anyway, and this lady emails me out of the blue and she goes, you know, thank you for doing what you do. Me and my lady, like her and a ladies' group, get together every Wednesday, and they have it. It's called a two-bar kind of night where they all get together and they drink two bar. And I was like, What are you what? That is so cool. Like, that just yeah, I mean, I still I got goosebumps just thinking about it, you know, and uh you're like, what we're doing, one whiskey has its upsides and its downsides, but its biggest thing that we do is we allow people to create community, yeah, right? Come together. Um, and when she said that, I was like, you know, mother, we're gonna be okay. If we just stay the course, uh, we're not dicks to anybody. Everybody who comes into our tasting room gets a big smile and a handshake, you know, we're gonna be fine. And also we can't spend too much money. I don't know if you say time. I don't know if you got that theme there, but uh, you know, so anyway, that was it was awesome. And that's also gives you the power to say, we're not changing, and we're not, you know, because everybody will come to you. I don't know what businesses you gentlemen are in, uh, but like, how many times do people come to you and they say, We need you to do this? And you're like, I don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah, that's not true all the time.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Now, if you're a consultant, then you go, whatever you need. And you need that shovel for the bullshit. Yeah, yeah. Well, then you need two, one for them and you, you know. Um, but uh yeah, man, it's like uh yeah, that was a very heartwarming, and I needed that encouragement when I got it, if you know what I

Amaretto Barrels And New Whiskey Fans

SPEAKER_03 44:21

mean.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

How about the amaretto? Like uh for that one, I didn't even know amaretto was barreled.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Who who who the hell started barreling amaretto? I I my wife drinks amaretto, my father-in-law drinks amaretto, he's Italian. I don't know anyone though. Is that a thing? I don't know. Do you barrel it?

SPEAKER_03 44:38

No. Uh okay, so this is this is a little bit longer of a story, but it's really fun. Uh, a good friend of mine, James Lester at Sons of Vancouver Distilling in Vancouver, BC. He makes amaretto. He also uh he he released a few years ago a Canadian single malt using our once used bourbon barrels, and he won best in uh the best whiskey in Canada with our with that whiskey in our barrels, which is pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

We may have to talk to you to see if we can get that that brand name or a bottle, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Yeah, Sons of Vancouver, awesome guy, awesome whiskey, awesome product. So, but we were talking, and you know, he came down here, we would talk, you know, we opened about the same time. Um, it's a very cordial community, you know. Um, everyone generally tries to help each other out except that guy in the suit. Um, that's still I love that story so much. Anyway, um he he was coming in. I was like, hey, do you wanna, you know, I've got I just emptied some barrels. You just did some amaretto, and it might have been his idea, it might have been my idea. And we're like, let's just see how it goes. And so we started aging his amaretto or finishing it in our once used bourbon barrels, right? Which was a big hit. And then I was like, and I was like, well, fuck, what if we got that back and we'll see what happens? So there's I think it's like the only one in the world. Uh neighboring distillery did one as well with something, but it was one barrel, but ours is always available. Um, and so we got it back, and then we started aging our bourbon, and now what is now an amaretto barrel, right? Um, so it's a very, you know, convoluted cousins shouldn't be marrying type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

So we got connected with you. You you guys sent us more than what we ever thought we would ever receive bottle-wise samples to to try.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

And her first reaction like now I see that it wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Yeah, her her first reaction when she saw the barrels or bottles was amaretto. There's amaretto involved. And I was like, Well, it's amaretto barrel. And she goes, I don't, I I want to try, I want to try this. And I said to to a woman that I love that does not love whiskey, why would you want to try whiskey? And her response was because it's finished in amarto. Yeah, yeah. I've given you uh her when we go to bars and people say bartenders or servers say, Do you want something to drink? She goes, I know. I don't like anything below or I like everything below 100 proof or anything higher than $300, a glass. I cringe and go, Stop, stop, stop, stop talking, stop talking. Right? Stop talking. But for her to go, I want to try this because it says amaretto, because it was finished in the amaretto, and I love amaretto. And I don't know anyone else that does this. Like, holy cow.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

It's gonna bring in people, customers, yeah. So my wife and his wife are sisters, yeah. Uh super Italian, their maiden names like DiAgostino, like very Italian. Oh wow, oh wow, yeah. So, and they are like like they don't drink, but when they do, it's amaretto, it's Di Serono. They're huge fans. Um, so I mean, and I'm sure they're not the only kind like that of people that are not really into whiskey, but they see Amaretto and they're like, Well, that's my jam, so I'm gonna try this. So that's just a great, not just marketing thing, but I just think that that's a great, you know, transition bot, like a way to for people to get into whiskey.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

I don't know if you thought about that when you did it, or you just thought, fuck you know, like let's try this, but well, you you know, you gotta first it starts with just trying to be a little creative and having fun, right? That's where all the best ideas come from. Um, I will say that we got lucky because it's really good. I if the wine barrel is a pre-mix kind of uh or easy man's Manhattan, the amoretal is almost like the same, but for a uh old-fashioned, yeah. Absolutely. And and it's I think uh my I have a joke about it in that a lot of whiskies that are finished really are like diabetes in a bottle, right? Because it's so much goddamn sugar, right? And it's it's like a syrup. And it's I'm not a fan, you know, everybody. If you like them, that's great. But like this one, the the the hint of the sweetness, the nuttiness from the amaretto actually comes across. Uh and it's super good. Uh, I'm not uh I'm not like a sweets guy, but I like this one a lot. But it's you know, it's a lot more accessible, even at a higher proof. Um and uh yeah, it's been it's been a fun one. But you know, none of these people, you know, it's can you imagine me doing like a uh a sit-down case study with like a tasting panel? I don't think so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have my 12 people around the white table, they're all wearing white gloves.

SPEAKER_02 49:45

So you're saying you you kind of bob Ross. I'm like this. It's a happy little accident.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Happy little, happy little amaretto barrel. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Oh, there it looks great right there. You see that?

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Just my uh my wife's favorite cocktail, favorite cocktail anywhere ever was an amaretto sour that they made the old-fashioned way with an egg white.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

And so yeah, that's you have to.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Now I'm imagining this bottle finished in amareto that your bourbon finished in amaretto barrels with that with a sour button.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

We should try to do it with the egg white.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Uh like it's you get everything damn good in the sour.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

It's so good. Of course, I would say that.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

I don't know. We're talking finishings, right?

Innovation Limits And Pricing Reality

SPEAKER_01 50:31

These are yeah, um strange that you don't say the wine barrel, you don't have to. I I don't want you to, but then strange that you do amaretto. Is there any other finishings that you guys have thought of? Because you're you guys are thinking outside the box. I mean, we we got people that are like, oh, Ambrando.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

We we think outside of the box for a distillery, right? Like everybody on my side of the game, and I call it the great game, you know, distributors always like, well, what uh what kind of innovation do you have? And I go, fuck off. You know, like put me in they want innovation like, do I change the color on my label, right? Or like um, so it's hard. One, when it takes years to do, it's not like you can turn it on. I do miss that from my software days where it was like we'd have a release every Friday, right? And like now they're doing it probably even faster. Um so we, you know, we play around. We did a we're doing a port barrel. We haven't actually uh opened it yet, but that was about a year ago. So we're probably getting ready to try it. Um we did a barrel strength at what was it shit? Almost 130 proof that won best in show at the Tokyo Spirit Awards the year before last year, so early 2025 out of like 3,000 entrants. But like, you know, it's so interesting because as a business, I as a business owner, I like to play around and have that kind of stuff. But in order to be a functioning distillery that pays its bills, you've got to have, you know, your daily, right? Like I have some, you know, retailers that buy the AD proof by the pallet, right? And so how do you, and you know, and then with the small team, how do we do all a lot of these little one-offs, which also require a high regulatory overhead? The city, this well, the state and the federal government. And then if you want to sell it into another state, you got to register it there. It's like crazy, right? Um, and so the question is like, how do you balance everything? And we have focused on one, we play, but we deliver, right? Like that whisk, the whiskies we're delivering are going to be delicious and they're going to be consistent. And I think that has saved my ass where I know a lot of other distilleries who do multiple mash bills to your point, to your question earlier, right? But that, but what happens if it's a really good and it's sold out and you only had five barrels? You know, you need hundreds, if not thousands, of barrels to build a business.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

And you don't want to lose your identity in the process of it.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

You can't. You can't. If you change that flavor profile, you're going to alienate. Everyone's going to be like, there's something wrong with your bottle. What happened to two bottles? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the worst. I had a guy come in. Okay, this is funny. When we did the vodka, and he was like, I think you bottled tequila on accident. And I was like, What the fuck are you talking about? Like, that's a big leap. I was like, I don't, I don't think that happened. And he was like, There's so much flavor here. I was like, Yeah, man, because technically vodka to be vodka has to be odorless and flavorless, right? And we were distilling it out to the to the proof that you need it to be to be vodka, but our still is not a multi-tiered three, you know, uh three-story still that made it that it had flavor, but it wasn't tequila. Um, and so you have to be consistent and you have to be very price competitive, right? Like I love expensive whiskeys, but the average consumer doesn't, right? Uh the average consumer wants something in the $20 range where they can take it, they can drink it and do it again. You know, the $50, like right, yeah, the $50 to $80 bottles of vodka or sorry, bourbon, you're dead man walking. If you that's your price point, because the average consumer doesn't have that cash sitting around anymore. So long story short, hot that we're trying to balance having fun with being unique and delivering to the core needs of our customer base.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

Trying to stay consistent.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Yeah, I like that. So you guys, you mentioned earlier that you guys distribute to 20 states.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

Yeah. Well, we sell the 20 states, yeah. I I tell people that I have three loves in my life, right? It's very simple and it's and you know, I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm not very flexible. It's not changing in the number one, it goes in this order, my wife, my kids, and purchase orders, right? Because without without the latter one, I don't have a business. And if I fuck anything up with the first one, she owns half anyway.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

So it's like right, yeah. Okay, you're on a fine line.

SPEAKER_03 55:28

I would love a connection.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

So do you guys with that being said, do you guys also do online? Or what do you how do you guys get out to to everyone?

SPEAKER_03 55:38

Yeah, so we work with a company called uh uh one again, I won't want Mr. Mr. Daisy out of Washington, DC, and they do we sell it to uh our distributor, and they I guess they sell it to them, and then they distribute to a lot of the states around the country.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Okay, so you can do it online, kind of you can do it through our website, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

Okay, it just is a pass-through on our website.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Okay, interesting. We're gonna be like it's gonna be a long time before you're in Ohio because we're decks. Yeah, Ohio let anyone in.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

It's regulated like a motherfricker.

SPEAKER_03 56:12

Yeah, it was the wrong state to start this podcast. Every state is amazing, they're all like independent countries. So, like, let me see here, our bourbon, shelf too far. Give me a second here, gentlemen. There we go. So, like, our 80 proof is 26.95, and the wine and amared were 44.95, and the bottleneck bond is 49.95. Hell, those are great prices. Those are great prices.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

I didn't think we were playing around with those prices. Shit, I changed my opinion about the 80 proof. Wow, that is a great bottle for that price.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

Well, it's because you know, you need to be like most of the some of the best whiskey in the world is at that price point at 80, right? So you have to compete, you know. I if I was out there, so the first okay, you I think you'll appreciate this. The first bottle of bourbon I sold was in a 375, you know, like the half-size bottle.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:07

You know, yeah. And it was our yeah, it was our hundred proof, and I was selling it for like $49.95, right? Like, yeah, and people were buying it, and I realized early, oh, that's not gonna last. You know, like they were buying it because I was the newest guy on the block and they wanted to try it. And so as we have gotten better at production and more and more efficient, we have been passing those savings on to the end consumer as much as possible, right? Uh, because this is a fun game, it's a hard game, it's all the things, but it's a pricing game, and you have to sell in volume. You know, I met a distillery and they were like, Yeah, we just sold a bottle at $900, give or take, right? I'm I'm not exact, but I'm in the general ballpark. And I go, and how many of those did you sell? And they go, one. It's like, oh, that's sweet. Okay, that's very sweet. Yeah, great, great story, guys. This isn't it, it's an annuity, right? If you if you are lucky enough to get a consumer liking your what you do, the flavor profile, the history, the packaging, they're gonna be you could you could be with them for decades. Oh, yeah, if you play the game. Brand Lloyd, right? And you're sincere, yeah, and you're authentic, right? And um, now if people don't like somebody who curses, I'm probably not the one for them then.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

But uh we our our podcast, us three and our club, we love craft. We we've we uh Chris and I and Steve has joined the bandwagon are very, very, very passionate about what you guys do. What

Why Craft Whiskey Builds Community

SPEAKER_01 58:48

would you what would you what would you say as an owner that bootstrapped it for those that are like, I don't know, I mean uh maybe there there might be a chance, but like sell me uh on this craft distillery world versus Buffalo Trace versus Heaven Hill versus you know bean.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

Yeah, I mean I think that's a great question, frankly. And there's so many ways to tackle it. The top level is the kind of the heartfelt thing is that you're supporting local, right? And like I buy all my like this matters to me. It doesn't matter to 90% of my consumer base, but I buy directly from the farmer for the corn and the wheat, right? Um and that makes a difference. You know, he has uh two young, now they're a little older, but like an eight and nine-year-old, eight and ten-year-old kids, right? So that makes a huge difference. That's I that's what I love that aspect of it. Um but ultimately it's gotta come down to quality and accessibility, right? And the quality I would also put under there is how it's made, but also the flavor profile. Like, does it have the flavors or the things you're looking for? Um and you you know, you will get quality in terms of how it's made from the big guys. You're not gonna get local, and you're not gonna get uniqueness, right? And uniqueness could be like how good is it in you in the whiskey sour, right? How good is it in a paper plane, right? All the old cocktails, right? And and also how good is it to be sharing with your around the fire pit with buddies on a beautiful summer night, right? Like, is there a story to tell there? Um, but if you as a craft distillery, you people, at least in the early days, would give you that first sip for free, right? To try it, but without the quality, you're dead man walking. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Yeah, and you'll turn them off and then you're done.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

Oh, they'll never come back. They're like, oh, I tried, I won't try a local guy's, you know, uh because they it tasted like garbage, or I'm still I'm still it still burns three years later, right? Or something. Uh if it is, you should get that medically checked up. Uh you know what's worse is when you tell a joke and you laugh at your own goddamn punchline. Like, how bad is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Yeah, I don't think if you don't if you don't laugh at your own joke, then you didn't believe it when you said it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

I I don't think I knew the punchline when I started the joke. That's the problem, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

Like, I liked it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:26

I appreciate that. Um my wife's like, you're a psycho. Um, and I was like, who married me? You know, like 20 years. This is your fault, not mine. Yeah, don't blame me. I'm the victim. Uh no. Uh, but I would say like local and quality and uniqueness, right? Like that is the thing. Um, and uh, but if that but here's the other thing like I love all those things, but uh some of the consumers, those guys I met at that bar that morning at 9 a.m., that wasn't their shtick.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:01

Yeah, yeah, they they just want a decent sipping, sipping whiskey that's decently fairly.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:12

And you know what? Nothing wrong with that. More fucking power to them. Yeah, that's what it was made for.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

Well, that's it was it's it's so interesting that you you bring that concept up. They want an easy, affordable, stress-relieving sipping beverage. Yeah, it's so interesting that you bring that up because uh the uh generations below us say let's get rid of alcohol because there's so many bad things, or let's let's go to something that's not gonna hurt us the next day. It's it's those that forget that there's a generation that says, I just I want to I don't want to forget the day, but man, today was stressful. Today was hard. Yeah. And then there's a generation I mean when there's a generation after that that goes, I I don't want to forget, I want to remember. I I want to enjoy what I'm drinking, I want to have a memory made, I want to open this bottle with someone else, and I want to sit there and I want to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:17

Yeah, I want to share stories and I want to create stories with people who I'm close with. So Burb, like we were talking about, we talked briefly about this, right? Um I've I had smoked pot in my past, right? Like I was a young man, I was having fun, but I didn't do it uh socially. I would do it like uh buddy and I, we get together and we watch like you know, Comedy Central and stuff, and but it was it was a sad, it was sad, right? Like you don't you're smoking pot, you're on your own, and that bag of Doritos doesn't stand a chance. And like, yeah, and bur and alcohol is it definitely has its downsides, right? I meet a lot of people who tell me, oh, I I don't I don't drink anymore. And I go, you know what? I'm glad to hear that, and more power to you, you know. But if you come back, you sound like you might be a good customer. But here's the thing is like in this in this age, right, after COVID, people are hurting for community, right? And seeing the three of you guys in the room having a sip, smoking a pipe or a cigar, you know, like that's the fucking shit that goddamn matters. You know, it's um it's creating community and kinship with people. And uh, you know, like uh I won't say his name, but a guy that I know locally, he's one of the sales reps with my distributor here. He went, you know, he was heading home, gonna go pick up some beers uh for home. And these teenagers approached him and said, Hey man, uh, you know, very shy about it, very embarrassed, but and you know, quiet about it, but can you buy us some beers? And he can't because legally he could lose everything, right? Uh and nor should they have access to that stuff. But he was like, at least they're starting to see the value in it, you know, that there's community, that they can do this together. And you know, because smoking pot is is fine for people, but like at least some people, but like you're not happier after it, you know, and yeah, if you drink too much, yeah. Well, don't do that, you know, like have one or two and just moderate your day and enjoy that moment in time that can never be reproduced, right? Like that's what it's about.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

A lot of times it's just a catalyst for the moment. That's all that's all whiskey is. If used for the right thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

Yeah. Well, I mean, we've all been there. When you meet a buddy at a bar and you haven't seen you haven't caught up in 10 plus years, right? And you're sitting there and you're drink drinking whiskey and it's like no time has passed, and you do it safely and responsibly. Boy, howdy, that's that's living, I think. That's a good time.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

So

Visiting Two Bar: Tastings And Tours

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

if people come to visit you, I would say if, because we would if we live near you. Do you guys have a tour? Do you guys have a bar, a cocktail bar? What do you guys do there?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

So we do we do have cocktails on Fridays and Saturdays. Mostly it's a tasting bar. So we come in, we show you the facility, and like this isn't my only facility, but it's my main production facility. I'll show you. I call it the nickel tour, and I owe you four cents back at the end. Um so you got our tasting room here. That was the original logo that you saw from that bottle, right? Uh, and then here's I'm trying not to make anybody seasick. So we got our production facility, we've got our hot liquor tank, mash ladder ton, and the four fermenters. A little side note, I don't know if you can see the lovely ladies on the fermenters uh at that distance, but we've got June, Dolly, Connie, and Patsy.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

Oh, so country music stars, huh?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Yeah, baby. And I I grew up on stories of my dad going to dance halls as a young man, and I believe he saw June and Connie on the old country music circuit. And then here's just a little bit of our whiskey. We have another warehouse next door, you know. Um, it's the only reason I have friends is that I make whiskey. And that's this is the most hideous piece of equipment. That was our original hot liquor tank. Uh, and then we repurposed it as a wash still, and then we have our spirit still here, and then a bottling line in the back. And then we have whiskey sitting here just getting ready to bottle next week. Very, it's very intimate.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Yeah, I like it. That's craft, yeah. So do you do you guys have your own like uh single barrel program or oh yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

Okay. We uh we just sold one to uh fun thing, uh like a random, but uh he bought one for his wedding. Uh we've we just sold one to an account in Kansas, and we're about to sell another one to a retailer up here in Seattle. And we do it, um, you know, they're kind of a pain in the ass uh on the management side, but they're so much fun to do. Like at the end of the day, I was like, that's awesome. And I always try to save at least one bottle for me, although I don't have a very strong whiskey library because I fucking drink it. God damn it. I have the same problem. Yeah, yeah. You guys meet people and they're like, oh, I have 300 bottles. And they don't drink it. Yeah, they don't drink it. What did what did you do to go down?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:41

What those people are usually stingy when it comes to pours, too.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

Oh, yeah. They get out their little like their little measuring it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

Yeah, it's like, chill out, dude. Just pouring a glass.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:51

I go like this, uh, tell me when. Yeah, you know, and it's gone. I had uh we hosted a fourth of July. Well, every year we host a fourth of July party, and uh a buddy came over and I we just did the that uh it was a six-year, about 130 proof, right? Um, that's what I was mentioning. And he goes, I I was like, Yeah, he goes, Can I try some? I was like, Of course, you know where the bar is, go grab some. The bottle was two-thirds gone, and I had no idea because we were also hosting the fireworks crew that sets up a big fireworks thing for our community, and um I was like, dude, you cannot fucking drive home, man. Like that is I will drive you home, but also can you pay me for that bottle?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:37

Yeah, that's so about the bottle, like Jesus peach, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:41

Yeah, yeah. That was like one of a kind. It was the one one that I had, and the rest we had sold to other people, but anyway, first world problems through and through.

Port Finish Plans And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

Well, uh we want to really thank you for getting on with us like this. This has been a fantastic conversation. We've had a great time. Well, make sure to put all the socials and all that kind of good stuff in the show notes.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:02

No, you guys have been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for the time. And uh, you know, let's our paths cross again. If I'm ever out your way, let's meet up and vice versa. And uh don't come here in the winter, but in the summer, you know, it's like uh it's 80 degrees and no bugs. Oh, nice. Just like Indiana, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:22

Oh yeah. Is there is there any yeah, is there anything uh fun that you're you're coming up to that you want to talk about? Any finishings, any special releases?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:32

Well, we're gonna we'll release, we're gonna uh bottle, I think, the port in uh probably late September, early October. So we'll give you guys a little sample bottle of that. Um and then you know, I'll try to get you guys if you can remind me uh at the same time. I'll send you Maddie, uh, my head distiller. Uh she hides shit, she hides shit from me, uh, which is just rude. Um, but I bet we can get you a sample of the sick here, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:58

Oh, that'd be awesome. Yeah, that'd be cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Yeah, very cool. And uh killer. Yeah, so we'll put everything in the show notes along with their link for buying online, because like I said, Ohio sucks.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:09

Well, gentlemen, honestly, you guys are a lot of fun. Keep up the great work. Uh, and let's definitely, if you ever make it out this way, we I'd love to host you.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

All right, sounds good. Fantastic. Thank you. Same here. Awesome. Yeah, thank you much, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:22

Cheers. Thanks, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:29

Thank you for listening to the podcast. If you want more great content and other perks, be sure to support the show by clicking the link in the show notes. We can be reached on our website, whiskey tasterspod.com, with any ideas for the show. Thanks again.