Redwood Empire Lost Monarch Cask Strength!

Welcome And Festival Talk

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Welcome to the Whiskey Chasers, where we talk about our passion for whiskey and its history, either amongst ourselves or while interviewing distilleries. All while enjoying a glass. I'm Steve, I'm Nick, and I'm Chris. Please enjoy responsibly while enjoying this week's episode of The Whiskey Chasers. The music festival world I really enjoy. You get a lot of like no namers at those because there's like the big names at the end of the day, but if you're there for multiple days, there's music playing all day. So there's no namers in the middle of the day on there that are uh, you know, we we found them and they're amazing. But I'm also not super into drugs. So that so when you tell people you're going to so when you say you're going into a music concert, like they're thinking you're dropping acid and you're doing all this stuff. It's like I'm not doing that, but I'd like to go to more festivals and stuff because I've now done a couple of different stadium chores, and I don't think stadium is the right venue for me for music. Yeah, uh, and so I like I like the smaller venues uh for that, and the like like Blue Stone's a really cool venue. When we went, it was like a sold-out crowd, and they sell it out maybe a touch too much. Um, it was a little too crowded, but oh, but the venue itself is really, really cool. So that kind of stuff is is really good.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

You talk about like bluegrass, small stadium, starter out, like no namers.

Meet Lost Monarch Cask Strength

SPEAKER_03 1:40

The bottle we're having tonight. If Chris was on, he'd be like a thousand percent. Chris and I found Redwood Empire, a no-namer. It used to be white, so they had three labels white, white, and white, with blue coloring, red coloring, and black coloring. This one we're having tonight is like a Redwood Empire with like a like a burgundy, like brownish almost color. But from what I understand, Steve, you've done the research, they were a no-namer, and now they've might have become something. And this bottle might be the start of becoming something.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Yeah, so Redwood Empire, they are a bottle that I have seen on the shelves for a long time, and I've never picked them up. They're out of California, if I remember. They tend to be a touch on the pricier side, which is the reason I've never picked them up. They're not that old. They start in 2015, so they're only 10 years old. But they're out of California, and uh the redwood, the redwood is kind of their thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

We always thought it had something to do with like the redwood like trees. Like we plant something if we buy and they do something.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

So they do, they do. They plant a lot of trees, they plant it over. Do they plant redwoods? Uh, is that a thing still? They plant various types of trees, they do donate some money to preserve the redwoods. Can you plant redwoods anyway? Well, I mean, you can plant them, but they grow slowly. So, like, that's the thing. And you gotta wait like a thousand years or something. I mean, they're old, right? But the name of this bottle, the Redwood Empire is the name of the company. Right. This particular bottle is named The Lost Marnark. Their two main other offerings, this this is their combination. It's an emotional whiskey, it's a rye and a bourbon. Their main bourbon is called pipe dreams, their main rye is called uh emeralds, uh, emerald something. Where to go? Emerald Giant. Yeah, all of those names, Emerald Giant, Pipe Dreams, Lost Monarch, are names of trees in the Redwoods.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

What kind of names of the trees?

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Specific trees. Yeah. So if you go to the Redwoods, you can you can go and see like this tree, the Lost Monarch, is uh like a one tree, a specific tree. If you go to their website, they'll give you the coordinates for it. And it's in uh it's in um uh Jebediah Smith Redwood State Park in California, and you can go to it. It is the I think it's the third largest tree in their in their area, and you can go and get stats for that particular tree.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

So largest tree, so like a 10-foot uh like pine tree.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah, between between 10 and 12, I would say feet tall. No, someone there. Uh actually, there uh let me see if I can pull this up real quick uh to find this exact tree for us. It is 321 feet tall. So that would mean it is so it's a football field tall, it's a little more than a football field. Sorry, what is tall the tree, the tree, okay?

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Ghostmarnark tree is a football field tall, yeah. So if you laid a football field up, that's how tall it is. So we could possibly run up and die. 26 feet wide, 26 feet wide, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

So look if you stretch out your arms, if you're a six-foot person or right right around there, you stretch out your arms, it's about six feet. So it would be uh six of you are fingertip to fingertip if you're six foot tall. So as an idea of about how tall that would be, or six of you on top of each other or laying down.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

That's a lot, and that's like seven of me.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Yeah, like that's insane. Uh so yeah, and it is uh it's in, like I said, Jebediah Smith, Redwood State Park, and you can go on there, it's in the Grove of Titans. There's a particular grove of Redwoods, they they divide all that up out there, and if you go to the Redwoods, you can you can kind of see all that. I've never been to Redwoods, yeah. No, I've never been there. I've wanted to go, but it is high on my bucket list of things to do, and sooner the better. And so I I I would love to because you're gonna die soon, no, because uh wildfires, yeah. Wildfires and stuff are taken out of them very soon. But these ones get the red, right? Like fire, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Fire and bread because fire goes, Oh, you're like me, I'm not gonna burn you. Yeah, yeah. They have an agreement, yeah. They're gonna go around this one and this one and this one. Oh, you're big. Let's go around you, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Uh, but there's a site that's called famousredwoods.com, and you can go and find particular trees, and like there is like a movement of finding just old trees. Like, you can go out and like find it, like every state has their oldest tree, and you can go out and you can find the coordinates and go to that tree if it's on public land.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

You know what tree I would want to find? Yeah, the one from um Forrest Gomp movie. Yeah, yeah, from the Friday. Super full one. Is that the one that's hanging? Yeah, and then at the beginning of the movie, there's city, the kids are sitting on it, and at the end of the movie, the branches like on the ground or close to the ground, it's like not far. Is that the weeping willow? I don't know. No, that's a different one. Yeah, that's a different tree. Almost kind of like I mean, I'm sure that one was in that movie too. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

It's it's huge. I mean, it's massive. It was years ago. The most famous tree that I know of is the one from Shawshank Redemption at the end of Shawshank when they're the he buries the stuff. That's up in Mansfield, Ohio. And so you can go there and check that out. And so it's it's near Mansfield Reformatory, is where that whole movie is is filmed.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

You want to know how I know about the Redwoods? The only reason I know about the Redwoods is Star Wars.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

The Empire Strikes Back, I'm pretty sure they they like yeah, yeah, they like fly through on the little like uh was it Empire Strikes or was it Return of the Jedi?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Oh because here's the thing if somebody hears that they're and they might complain. It's the Wookiees.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Please text us that's Return of the Jedi. Return of the Jedi's Wookiees? Oh okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

All right, yeah, so I was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

I don't know my Star Wars at all.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

So I won't uh Empire Strikes Back along with uh uh the the what monster, the snow monster. Oh gosh. Oh yeah, I can't remember the name of that one. Oh gosh, I'm blinking. Anyway, so now people do not complain.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Yes, do not complain.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

We're corrected. I Texas for Rome. Yes, yeah, yes, but yeah, so that's how we found out so Chris and I got in on this bottle when they first

Redwood Trees Behind The Label

SPEAKER_03 8:32

started. You said 2013? 2015. 2015. Okay, so 2015. Mary and I came to Ohio 2018. So that might have been three years when we found this bottle around when they first started, and they were sourced at the time, if I remember right, uh, wanting to make their own. This is the start of theirs. The these cast drinks are the start of blending, if I understand right, blending their stuff with whatever they sourced at the at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yes, they are a blending company, so they they do make their own stuff, but they also blend it with others. So they're a combination of that. Uh, they're out of California, which California is wine country, and it's so super interesting for whiskey. Yeah. So we've had a couple of brands out of California. We've had these guys, we've had um uh uh whipsaw and all them, which is which is what Savage and Coke, not Savage and Coke.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

That one's uh oh Chris wants to call it's a game. No, it's uh uh I think it's a game. Are you saying game? A game, like video game, yeah. Old video game. It's uh no oh gosh. It's uh this guy's like a it's not an AV SEAL game. He's like uh Splinter Cell. Oh, I was just going way back and Chris always calls it I am Splinter Group and Chris always calls it Splinter Cell. Always calls it Splinter Cell.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Yes, but they source them for that bottle, they get their stuff from prisoner wine, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:04

Is that is that for that bottle? Um or is it one of their other versions of other versions, but they talk to prisoner, they talk to the owner of prisoner wine, so uh or or or that's not Orion, uh whoever the owner is of Savage of Coke, uh David Piney, yeah, yeah, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah, which also, but not anymore. So not anymore. No, no, David Piney does. I feel like we talked about this for their Christmas bottle. No, print this just happened this year. Prisoner wine. Prisoner wine is now owned by High West. Wow, okay, didn't know that. Prisoner wine was just sold off to High West, but the owner of Prisoner Wine is the owner of Savage and Coke, but he also owns Orion O'Brien or he was Orin Swift, Orin Swift, yes, Orin Swift, yeah, uh, which is sold to Gallo, which is a wine organization there that so they're taking over Orion Swift. Uh Prisoner was sold to High West. This year, I'm pretty sure Prisoner was sold prior to that to someone else. He could have been, but Savage and Coke, who he also owned, yeah, was just bought by Redwood Empire. Oh, so Redwood Empire just took over. Is that how they're able to make their coke? Huh? Is that how they're able to make their own? I think they were making their own anyway, but they're taking over their distillery. So Savage and Coke had a distillery moving to their distillery near San Francisco. Uh so that is their new location as of 2025. They like just just bought them so like in January of this year. So that's that's a brand new acquisition that is helping them kind of grow out a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Was Savage and Coke putting out their own stuff under their own label prior to that? Uh, I don't know if they were doing it under their own label.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

They were distilling, they they did have a distillery and they were making their own. I don't know if they did it under their own name.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Savage and Coke just started their own label recently, like within January, under their own name of Savage and Coke, and they started doing uh bloody butcher corn bottlings like bourbon and stuff. So I don't know if it was them.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

So or here's the thing the the the parent company because there is a parent company uh both of these is is purple brands. Sorry, purple, purple, like the color purple, purple brands. I've never heard of purple. That's because it's a wine brand.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

So they it's now the owner of that brand, his name. So wait, purple brands owns wine, it's a wine brand.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

It is they primarily own wines, they have a a Benham gin is their only spirit other than Redwood Empire. The owner, the guy that started Purple Brands, his name is David Benheim, or I'm sorry, Derek Benheim. He started Benheim Gin and then started Redwood Empire. So he didn't buy out Redwood. He started it, yeah. So Purple Brands, which owns primarily wine companies, now owns or started Redwood Empire and this one gin. And then now they just bought Savage and Coke. Mine Savage and Coke, yeah. So we got some business stuff going on here.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Do you have a Ben diagram?

Wine Palates And Mash Bill Breakdown

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Right. So Micah, you're a wine guy. I love wine, yeah. I'm uh yeah, when in fact, I what popped out at me here was Sonoma Valley. Yes, because in that period of time, well, just before that, I suppose it would have been 2013, I guess. So right before we were in Sonoma, my wife and I were in Sonoma, and we went to like eight different distilleries over the course of a couple of days or or like a week or something, and loved it. Sonoma was incredible.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

So you're a wine guy to begin with, yeah. Before whiskey.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

That's that was my so I'm curious on your flavor, like what you get out of this, because we're talking a wine guy, someone that owned wine wineries that started. He owned a lot of wine brands.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Okay, and he was his family is in the wine world, so he knows wine. Yes, he knows wine.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

He started a whiskey brand, Redwood Empire, then bought out a very popular, well-known winery guy that started his own whiskey brand that has had so many different wine, like wine brands branch off of him. What is this compared to wine? I'm very curious, like flavor-wise.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah, well, I mean, so this is a whiskey, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:39

This is not this is bourbon and rye combined. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

So, yeah, what is the mash bill? Give it just like the because then it might help.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Yeah, so it's it's hard to know the exact well, here just a second. Let me see if I can figure suss out the the wine, the mash bill for you. Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Oh, so it's a common. So it's 55% rye, 45% bourbon is the the the blend.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yes, so it what it is, it's it's uh 55% of their bourbon, which is called pipe drinks. So it's 55% of that bourbon, which is uh has a mash bill of 73 corn, 18 rye, five multa barley, four wheat. So still a little bit on the higher rye, but not like a high rye.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

And yeah, we it's a four-grain. Yeah, it's a four-grain, but also like wheat, too, with a cool with a lot of corn in there.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Their rye, which is called Emerald Giant, it's 45% of that, which is 92% rye, 3% malt of barley, 3% wheat. So it's definitely high on the rye end, mash bill wise, because of the amount of rye in it.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

It's almost like a high, it's a rye whiskey that's high wheat. Yeah. So but it would coming from a wine flavor like wine palette, I'm curious on this for wine palette.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Well, so I mean, for okay. I'm gonna sound like a broken record here, but I mean, like for me, like this initially, my the first sip that I had was a real strong black licorice, but it evened out real fast after that to um like much more sweet than I was kind of expecting, quite frankly. But when I try to think about it in terms of like, so so I I started drinking um wine a long time ago, and then just tested out different wines after you know, uh going out to wine countries, stuff like that while I was there, and then eventually moved into beer for uh a period of time before I started drinking whiskey. So that was so beer was like the middle of my wine to whiskey. So I kind of had that, those tastes kind of like broken during that period of time. But um, I can definitely, you know, you you can for sure taste the some sort of red wine specifically. So I like cab cabernet, yeah. Cabernet's a lot, and that's what I'm getting from this from a wine perspective. I actually really enjoy the taste, uh, it despite the fact that I hate black licorice. So I mean, I yeah, I'm really I actually really enjoy this. So I I ru I ruined the end.

SPEAKER_04 17:30

You don't ruin anything on this.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

So for me, uh tasting this and thinking about it from a wine perspective, like you said, red wine. Uh for me, when I taste red wine, I tend to get a dryness out of it. Even though, like white wine is usually what you consider as a dry wine. Red wine, I usually taste it's sweet, but it leaves like a dry aftertaste, like it dries out my mouth, kind of thing. And I get that with this. I get kind of a that a little bit of that sweet, I get the sweetness of a red wine, but with a dryness to it. And it reminds me of kind of like a pinot noir or a uh like like kind of a heavier red wine that I also enjoy when it for when it comes to wine. I like a red wine. Yeah, um, I like cab Pinot Noir is my personal favorite. Um, I like it, I don't mind, yeah, exactly. And so I kind of like that uh in it. I don't really like white wines as much, so I do get a little bit of what you mean by that, like that kind of that dryness that you get from from wine, but also it is very sweet. Like it's I get a lot of sweetness out of it. The the black licorice that you're talking about, I do get that at the like you said, at the very beginning, it dies out quick, and it's almost like it's a I was trying to think of the fruit, and I can't. I'm I'm um what's the fruit that you really like? Black currant. Yes, there you go. I was about to say this black currant.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah, I don't even know what that is.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

It's kind of like a black currant, which is that to put it in perspective for you, it's like a super deep grape, which kind of can come out licorice because it's almost like it's not as sweet, it's it's almost like a like a really hard grape flavor.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Out of uh like African African, it is this like it's sweet, but it's so dark and rich, and like it it's the equivalent of like um like a dark beer, yeah, but like a sweeter dark beer. So wait, where did you taste this for so I I I got to go to Kenya a few times when I was in high school in college? Oh, that's so cool. And that's where and so it was high school, junior and senior year of high school, and in college, freshman year, I emailed Fanta, Coca-Cola, begging them to bring Fanta to the US. And they said, Oh, hell no. We can no, we we literally just have like flavors for different areas, and America will not like this. And I was like, You're retarded, and you don't know, you're dumb. Like, please bring this here. Please, please bring here. Like, I can't get it in the the most like the closest thing I can get is they have a black currant uh out of Germany, maybe northern England. It's like this concentrate they can buy like Meijer and I can mix that with soda streams, so like soda water with that, and it's the closest thing I can get to it, but it's still not the exact same thing. And I like, oh, I need I want that flavor.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

So, do you like coffee? Yes, okay. So I swear I have had a coffee out of somewhere in that region that used the black current, yeah, yeah, yeah, as part of the flavor profile of the bean.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

It's this like deep, dark, sweet.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

It's gotta be like Ethiopia. So I love Ethiopian coffee.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

That's fantastic, but like it's only in that region. But when you bring that up, Steve, I I smell this, I taste this, and I go, I have a love-hate relationship right now. I hate Fanta because they won't bring that flavor here to America. But I'm starting to see that with bourbon because there's these brands, these these distilleries coming out of California that aren't necessarily distilleries, but are brands that know wine. Yeah, and they're doing they're doing wine, whiskey, wine bourbon so well that I'm like, we're bringing on a different era, we're bringing on something more.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

So for me, like these guys have like a master blender because they're they're bringing it, they're making their own stuff, they're also bringing in other stuff. So they're they they have blenders, yeah. Which to me, that's like because they're from wine country, they're used to that blending tradition. There, there is a blending tradition in wine that there is not necessarily in American whiskey. So now Scotch, all that they have blenders, they that that is there, but for Americans, we're looking for single barrels. We're looking for we don't want a blend. We want the the single thing. And so because of that, like that's the reason I think that like Westward, which is a whiskey brand out of Oregon that is very big in American single malt, has become so popular, is because that American single malt is more of a Scotch-esque sort of thing where you have a lot of blending going on, you have a master blender with those companies. And so because of that, I think anything on the West Coast that's more wine-centered, I think does blending things a little bit better. And that's it's because of the wine tradition that they have. Now, to put it in perspective, though, on the size of this company, they have like we have at least their their main offering, Pipe Dreams, is in is in Ohio. Lost Monarch is in Ohio, I believe.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

I don't think the cast strength is, but the regular so I found the cast strength outside of Ohio.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yeah, but both of those are in Ohio. Pipe Dreams and Lost Monarch, non-cast strength are in Ohio. I don't know if Emerald Giant is. I don't think I've ever seen that before. They're rye. I don't know. I don't know if Chris and I found it early on or not. I don't know, but I know those two are.

How Small Distilleries Scale Production

SPEAKER_02 23:21

But to put some size in perspective, they just bought out Savage and Coke. They just moved on into their distillery and started using their equipment and doing all that kind of stuff. They are now tripling their production and putting out 14 barrels, 14 barrels a day. Tripling. Yeah, they were four barrels a day.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

So in 2015. We're talking 53 gallon barrels. Okay, so we talked about Indiana Whiskey Company on the last podcast. They put out 90 gallons a day. That's the most they can ever put out. So that's roughly two barrels. Uh 230 gallons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Yeah. 330 gallons.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

I must have like literally no concept of how much people put out.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Yeah, when you do distillery tours, it's it's mind-blowing going like big to small to like really small, and then smaller.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

What do bigs put out?

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Thousand barrels.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Uh like like I think Buffalo Trade or uh Jack Daniels, the big to go for the biggest. Jack Daniels, I think, puts out like 4,000 barrels a day.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Of 53 gallons.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

A 53 gallon barrels.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Okay, and I would expect that. Yeah. So what about medium?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

So journeyman, uh, I don't know their exact number, but I would guess it's probably in the it's in the hundreds, maybe a hundred. I no, I take that back. I bet it's under a hundred. Yeah, I would say eighty.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

You really like an estimate. Huge to like maybe medium to small to extremely small. I don't know if they really have like huge to large to small. Like yeah, I don't know who would be concerned.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

I take Middle West would probably be large. Oh, yeah, Middle West, maybe because they're now that they're sourcing for other people and stuff and contracting, kind of like an MGP sort of thing. They're middles here. I would say they're probably a what would be maybe a large, yeah, large. Whereas, like, or like if you're gonna consider Jack Daniels large, then you would put them at medium and then journeyman or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

Small, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Because I was like, I was thinking 14 is little, yeah, very little.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

But we're talking uh you talk 14 barrels, but 53 gallons, you talk about Indiana Whiskey Company putting out three 30 gallon barrels. That's the most they can so 90 gallons a day. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Well, we were talking about when we were talking about single barrels and like trying to get companies to join us for a single barrel. How many bottles do you get out of a payroll?

SPEAKER_03 25:55

I mean, we we did uh we did Journeyman and we got 200. What was the fire and flask? Uh dir Durham, yeah, Derium or Durham, yeah. So they do five gallon barrels. You have gallon barrels. That's 15. That's a 15-gallon bucket.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

So they do five gallon buckets. Think of a five-gallon bucket. Yeah, so like you go from like but like how many jump, but that is a when we're talking about trying to join somebody to do a single barrel, how many bottles do you get out of a full 53-gallon barrel? Is it like a thousand?

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Three, no, so 15 was 75, 30 probably be 140, full.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Oh, 5200, so 80. Okay, 280.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

280, 250, someone there.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

So that means they're producing in in barrels if they were to, if they were to sell the whole thing, now volume goes down over time. But as an estimate, you could say they make a thousand bottles a day, as a way of breaking it down. Now, that's really not true because things go down, the volume goes down over time. Like that 53-gallon barrel is not full by the time they finish it. So, like this cast strength, instead of 280 bottles, they probably got like 150 bottles out of that barrel. Okay, so use that number, 150 bottles, only four of them. So they're just they're they're making like say 500 bottles a day.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

I mean, that's still a decent amount. That is a decent amount like for their side. I mean, starting you talk about starting what 2013 is what you said, 2015. 2015. So 2015, we're talking 10 years, and they were started out not producing their own, but they were sourcing to producing to now buying someone else. 10 years they've sourced, made, bought, now made their own, and they're producing, they're making how much 15 14 barrels, 14 barrels a day.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

That's huge. And they then they bought uh wine brands.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Is that how they started out with oh so his parents own a wine brand, so he kind of grew up with wine, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Okay of Savage Coke uh was a wine family prisoner wine, yeah, yeah. But he but Savage of Coke is a whiskey brand, so they they did start making whiskies, and then so fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

Uh there they're bought them out. So prisoner wine was bought out by high west. High West. Fascinating to me because they're a Salt Lake, yeah. That's weird. But then he owned, so he sold Prisoner, started Orin Swift. But you bring that craft to American whiskey, to American bourbon blending, and it's like, what am I doing? What is happening?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Honestly, I think that that that's that could potentially be one of the waves of the future for you know American whiskey, quite frankly. I actually really enjoy this too, which makes me wonder. I don't know, did you guys already talk about like where did you get this bottle? So tipsy's where I bought this.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

I can't find it outside of Ohio. I can't find uh sorry, inside I can't find it outside of Ohio. I can start to find right.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Lost Monarch, we do have an Ohio, just not the Cast Strength version. Uh so that bottle, but not cash strength. See, I'm telling you, and I pay I'll be buying them. So yeah, it's really good. I'm I I'm a huge fan of this bottle.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Maybe top dollar for it, and I paid $115 for it, maybe. I mean, but that's reasonable. But uh going back to like the the wine aspect of like blending, like holy crap.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

This one, uh, so they they started in Sonoma County, so they're right there in wine country. They're now at uh Mare Island, which is near San Francisco, so that's where Savage and Coke was, and that's where they're they moved to, and that's where they have like a tasting room and doing all doing all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

So I just finished off a bottle of Fortune's Fool, I believe is the brand. Um, and they started with their prelude. So they do like acts, kind kind of like uh mid-winter night's trim. So they started with a prelude and then went on past that. Tipsy recommended this several times, several, several times to me. I passed it on, pass it on, pass it on. Finally was like, fine, whatever. You're you recommended this, I'll take it. I hate myself for passing it up. Okay, which one was this again? It's a fortune's fortune's full. Fortune's full. They're out of California. It it drinks like a finished rye. They air dry their staves out there.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

So that's another thing I was gonna mention on this is that these guys uh mature their barrels for 36 months. So for like three years, they age the barrels before anything's in.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

They literally just sit out in the air and let it dry. Like uh the flavor you get out of that is insane.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

And wait, so and in the in which location though? I like California. No, but I know, but like so that you said Sonoma, and then they move north, uh move to closer to San Francisco.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

So they're as of this year, they moved to San Francisco area.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

I wonder where they're going to add. The reason why I say that is because in Sonoma County. So listen, Southern California is super dry. Yeah. And when you get to close the closer you get to mid, it gets wetter and wetter. And then northern is like, you know, like basically Seattle.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

So these might be like Southern California that they're doing. Okay, so that could I could see there being more but you get this like dark cherry, dark, like red. Oh, dark cherry.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

There's another word, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:41

You have this like dark red, dark cherry, like dark fruit finish. Yeah, and I I literally sent Tipsy text was like, Hey, why didn't you tell me this is finished? And goes, it's not. And so we picture it's like crap. I have the bottle, like this this is not finished, it's just air-dried staves, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

So, according to them, they they mature their barrels for 36 months. Uh it uh Redwood Empire does. Yeah, they say that because of the slower aging and more consistent temperatures of California than like Cal than like Kentucky, because things are more consistent. Uh, this makes the wood more even and it also draws out more of those tannins, so it helps the the whiskey be a little bit smoother, so it likes it less harsh, is what they say. Yeah, because the the tannins in the wood. Now, I was thinking about this as I wrote it, and as they were talking, they were comparing themselves to Kentucky, uh, because they're talking about Kentucky whiskey, but they're talking about barrels, not whiskey. And we've learned that most of the barrels that people use are out of Missouri. So there's a big cooperage in Missouri that makes most of the barrels that Kentucky uses. So they're really comparing Missouri barrels to California barrels.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

They're also they're also probably I'd say probably 75% of the whiskey they buy is probably from MGP. So they're considering like Indiana whiskey to Missouri barrels, yeah, not Kentucky.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

I'm assuming that they're aging their own stuff, so they're gonna buy raw.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

So they're they're buying raw and they're gonna age, but they're Indiana whiskey to Missouri barrels to aging in California.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

You're saying it's a stretch, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Oh it's there's a lot going on. Yeah, there's a lot of stretch. There's a lot of like yeah, there's a bunch of pieces to that. So much variation going on.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

To claim that is I I think I think to the maybe more uninformed consumer would be an easy win.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

This seems like a good marketing thing to sell.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Because this is so much variation that's like I can't I can't call this Indiana, I can't call this Kentucky, I can't call this California.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Like what do I call this? Now, on the flip side, as we've discussed, this particular bottle, this is very fruity. It is very not harsh, but that is 100% agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

Like, that's their thing. It's like very it's not harsh, it's very fruity, very welcoming, it's very like uh enjoyable.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah, you know, I get like like for this particular bottle, I do get some of that rye spice. Like, it's not like I don't know that this is a rye of some sort, like that there is a rye in this. I get the spiciness of the rye, but I get the spiciness of the rye kind of in the middle. It's not at the end where it's burning me, it's not going down the throat, and I I don't feel the burn of like a rye, or I don't feel like this is like a high proof because of that, right? Because this is what 116 or something. I think uh there's like 116 proof, 116. Yeah, I think it tastes pretty much that it tastes like it's a higher proof, but it doesn't burn at all going down. There is a sweetness at the front, a spiciness in the middle, and then it just kind of draws out and it has a really nice long finish that I really, really enjoy.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

I gotta believe this is great with tobacco. Oh, like a pipe tobacco.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Oh yeah, I I would guess that this would go super well with a um oriental that has a kind of a creaminess to it, uh, but also like a creamy spiciness to it that I think would go really, really well with it.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

It would add to the rye almost like the rye aspect, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Um uh a burly oriental blend would probably go super, super well with this.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yeah, and then and then then the fruity component too. Yeah, so like that I really actually enjoyed a lot. This

Pricing Reality Check On Hype

SPEAKER_01 35:52

would be one that I would yeah, buy. I would definitely pick up about all of this.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

So I have stayed away from Redwood Empire because it tends to be a little on the price. It does, but I think when they first started out, it was like 50, 40, 50 bucks, yeah, and that was a couple of years ago, like and now they've kind of gone up a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

But it's kind of worth it. Like, I I think of like 50 bucks and like uh okay, so 50 bucks. This is I might have paid 110 for this. We'll we'll stretch it to 110 for a while there. Heaven Hill, seven year bottle button, 75 bucks in Ohio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see your face, Micah.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

It is in Ohio. Oh, the Cast Strength Lost Mark is in Ohio. What are they selling it for? For 70 bucks. Holy cow! I will for sure try this bottle at 70 bucks. I don't say that often, but like that is that is a super awesome price for this bottle. Um, yeah, I will uh yeah, we're select a location.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

I know, right? Exactly. You go to oh.com and look up where it's located and buy it.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Most people would walk into the store and not realize that this could be they would they would be like, Oh, so when we first started searching for this, it stood out because no one else had a bright white label. Oh, this is with red or blue labeling. And we saw it and we were like, Oh, that's interesting, that seems odd. Let's buy it, let's see what happens. We've never heard of you. And it was around that time of like, oh, we know sourcing, and we were like, uh, you don't make your own, but we tried it with like Chris has all three. He does not have these, he doesn't have the cast strength, he has all three of the normal.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Interestingly, the bottle and bond bourbon because they have a bottle and I did not know that a bottle and bond. It's called Empire Grizzly. I'm sorry, Empire Grizzly, Empire, uh, I'm sorry, Grizzly Beast. Empire I've never heard of Grizzly Beast. Uh, is available in Ohio for $80. So it's more expensive than this bottle for $80. And there is the rye, the emerald rye, yeah, for $40. So that one's worth it. And also, well, I don't know if it's worth it or not, but it is, it is. So and the uh pipe dream is $55. So just the regular bourbon is $55.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

I feel like if we if uh the podcast gets big enough, the chapters get big enough, like this would be worth a trip out to California just to go to the distillery at camp out.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

There's so many that are like I would love to go to the West Coast distilleries.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

If we can get like a week to go out west for a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

We're talking like Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, like down into California, even Nevada has some, like uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

But yeah, so uh there's more in Ohio than I thought was in Ohio. Um, and the cast rank version of this is 70 bucks. The one we're drinking right now is a steal, uh, well worth 70 bucks. Yeah, um, I don't even know if I'll get the regular version. Like, I will, I like there they make the regular how much is regular.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

I do have one thing to say is in regards to price and stuff like that, because there's a lot of people who base their um tastes and price point on blantons, yeah, and a lot of the butt Buffalo Trace ones. You you're spending how much money on like Weller Red, you're spelling how spending how much money on Blantons and stuff like that. I'm telling you, like this particular whiskey is way and this is high rye.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

Yes, I mean blantons is supposedly high rye.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

I mean, I mean, listen, I don't like I'm I don't like blands personally, and I but I love Buffalo what Buffalo Trace puts out. You're working to Buffalo Trace. Exactly. I am. I got my Buffalo Trace swag on, but like this, way more worth it to me as a consumer than Bland's at that price point, 100%. 100%. So and I would say the same thing with the uh the Weller antique, the red.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

So that's that's just my perspective for those that are I think blands or anything that's Sazerac, any of the Sazeraic brands are made for everybody, and so because of that, they're kind of they're they're friendly, they're they really are they're good for everyone, yeah. But after you're done playing with everyone, you want to play by yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:28

So low with birds, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

So, like, because of that, you like you're kind of done with what everyone likes, right? And Sazerek is a wheat heavy, kind of easygoing bottle, like it's for everyone, and it is good for everyone. Like, if you can find Buffalo Trace for the 30 bucks that a Buffalo Trace bottle is, well worth it. It's a fantastic bottle for 30 bucks. I really like Sazerac rye, Nick. You're not a fan of Sazerac rye, you're not you're not a fan of Sazerac rye, so I don't mind Sazerac rye, and for 30 bucks or whatever it is, like it's perfectly good for that. But when people are buying a bottle of Buffalo Trace for a hundred bucks or for 80 bucks, like you're getting ripped off. Like, that's it is a $30 bottle. It's a killer $30 bottle. It might be a $40 on a really bad day, $50 bottle. But that's that's cap.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

I already know what I've paid for in the past. That's the problem. Like Buffalo Trace, Weller. I used to uh Weller actually used to be cheaper than Buffalo Trace back way back in the day. Yeah, the green label, the special reserve, pull that off the shelf, 25 bucks. No joke, and then all of a sudden, like people started spending way more money on that than the normal flagship. And I'm just like, I that makes no sense to me. I don't like that as much. But yeah, agreed with you, Steve. Incredible bottle. I would I would 100% pay more for this one than I would for like the Blantons or the whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

So and looking at OHOQ's website, it looks like they don't even sell this bottle not in cast strength in Ohio anymore. So yeah, so it looks like there is no Lost Mart Arc not Cast Strength in Ohio. If you're not buying this, so uh well well worth it. And I would like to, and and the rest of them are around 40 bucks. That like their main stuff is 40 bucks. The the Baudelin Bond version is like 50 something. So that's what killed Savage Coke.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Buy them is people people looked at and like, oh, not worth the price. Like, people, this is worth the price tag. This is well worth the price tag. Savage Coke was well worth the price tag, every little bit of it. Because you talk about here's what blows my mind they bought Savage Coke. Savage Coke was finished in wine barrels. Yeah, we had one for the club. There was like three different wine barrels, barrel pick finish. Oh, like what? Like, like, even even Prince was like, I there you go. I've got I've got a I don't know. There's so much going on. Here's food. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

I couldn't place it. I'm basing the dinner off of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

I was thinking that Whipsaw was these guys, it was Savage and Coke, but it's it's Splinter Group. But they talked with finished with with prisoner wine. Um, and we really enjoy so Splinter Savage the Splinter Splinter Group talked with Savage Coke of like David, of like, hey, how do we do this?

SPEAKER_03 43:30

And he said, A, B, and C, here's how you do it. And they were a wine company sourcing and finishing. And I've got guys in Indiana that are literally like, How do I get this bottle? Yeah, they come here and they're like, I can get it for 45 bucks, buying it. Yeah, like it's insane. Although I haven't seen whips on the shelves in a long time. So you talk about this company buying out Savage Coke and still putting out Savage Coke? Yeah. What? What? Like a wine. You're talking about a wine company growing up in a wine company, buying out a wine company that put out whiskey that's still doing whiskey. Holy crap.

unknown 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Like, what is coming out of California?

Whiskey Versus Tequila For Wine Fans

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Like, what the heck is coming out of California? I honestly, I think we're at the forefront of something that's gonna be really interesting by way of whiskey, but also wine. Because what do you what we had in the last many years is like all these wildfires taking out vineyards and stuff like that, or limiting production in some way, shape, or form. Not to mention people are traveling more. I just had a friend that went over to um Italy and had, you know, Italian wine. We were mentioning that earlier today, and how like they don't add the sulfides and stuff like that into it, and how after the fact that she would have glass after glass and not experience like a hangover and things like that. I actually think there is a market here in the United States for stuff that doesn't include our artificial things with it.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Can you imagine that finished in bourbon barrels?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

I know, and but I want to, I want to be able to, yeah, exactly 100%.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

I I think that whiskey has a tighter tie to wine than it does to beer.

SPEAKER_04 45:14

Yes, 100% agree.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

But I feel like the whiskey drinkers are more likely to be beer drinkers than wine drinkers for now, for now, right? And I think I think there will be a shift to wine drinkers switching to higher spirits and and doing more whiskeys. Because beer drinkers, I don't think, drink whiskey for flavor, they drink whiskey for effect, effect, yeah. Uh, you know, there are like mixers and things like that. So they're doing a lot of Jack and Coke kind of stuff. When you get into these higher-end whiskeys, so whiskies where you're gonna sit and sip them for a while, that's more of a wine experience than it is a beer experience. And so I think it's just gonna I I think it won't take too much time for wine drinkers to switch over to the whiskey world. They may, depending on marketing, end up in tequila, though. And so I think tequila, like what just marketing-wise, I could I could see wine drinkers switching to tequila in order to get their high proof to get like a spirit version, because I think tequila does a good job of marketing their agave spirits and their like their their flavors in that world, whereas whiskey has just as like a like when you just say I drink whiskey or just I drink bourbon, you're thinking of Jack Daniels, and so you're thinking of shooters versus sitting and sipping, right? And I think tequila might be trying to become the to become a sipping spirit.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

I think I think gin might be the wine, tequila will be the shooters, it'll be the whiskey shooters. I think gin is more like the botanical, the like I'm pulling this, I'm pulling that.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Like, I think gin is what they want to be. I don't know if they will be. They'll feel like they should be gin drinkers because it feels sophisticated, but I don't know that they're gonna like gin necessarily. I don't think gin has an association with wine in flavor.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

You don't have the same kind of association, but you have the like deep I can pull this, I can pull that. A little bit, a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Whiskey I think has the most association with wine. But I think if tequila plays their hand right, they can take over that market. I hope that whiskey will not let that happen. I don't think that whiskey will will be able to take the wine crowd. Because I think the whiskey and wine combination is gonna be the right combination. Now where whiskey can do it if they play their cards right, is in the finishes. You can say that this is wine-finished whiskey, and that will draw the wine people over.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Yeah. So then then there's the the connection of the the marketing aspect there with it with wine and whiskey. I think that, yeah. So when I think of wine, what I think of is the Catalina wine mixer from Step Brothers, the movie. But it's like a lot of wealthy people, you know, buying helicopters or whatever in that movie and stuff like that. When I think of whiskey, I think of country music. When I think of tequila, I think of Dwayne the Rock Johnson. Right?

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Okay, because he's got what's it called?

SPEAKER_01 48:34

George Cooney? Exactly. Hollow Hollywood. So maybe, just maybe, that's like the the the press-up is like the center between whiskey and wine is tequila. I like your thought process, and I don't really know where gin comes into that mix.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Although the king of country music, George Strait, is has a tequila brand, not a whiskey brand. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Yeah, we exactly. Yeah, yeah, we got it. We gotta fix it. Come on, come on.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, uh, so here it one other thing is I think uh I think the uh uh catalyst here is Matthew McConaughey. Uh no, we gotta weed out a we got a Hollywood whiskey guy who's only like two hours south of wine country. Like, what we gotta do is get him on the beer cast.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

I would love to. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Yeah, Matthew, I think you're listening. You're you're probably somebody that knows him is listening.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Please do, please do it. I would love for this. I I I listened to the audiobook of um Green Lights. Yeah, did you? Have you guys got it? Literally, it was incredible as an audiobook because his voice combined with what he wrote was absolutely insane.

Blending Creativity And The Too-Winey Risk

SPEAKER_01 49:53

So I don't know if you guys know this, yeah, but right out of college, I went to um uh improv Olympic in Chicago. I studied long form improv.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Improv really is a cool skill to learn if you get a chance.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

100% agree. And then you you you take that into um you you push that into the whiskey and wine sector. And then like I know it's like it's sort of philosophical whatever, but I mean, like, realistically, like when people are doing things out in California, they're doing probably pretty creative things because that's just like the nature of the industry out there, right? So they're taking that into wine, right? Blending, doing their thing, whatever, and wine, maybe not. I don't know. And then they're doing the same thing with with whiskey too. So I'm actually really excited about what's about ready to come out of California.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

That excites me. When Chris and I first started, whiskey out of California was not normal. It was like whiskey out of Kentucky. That was the thing, right? So, like now you branched into like okay, Kentucky, Indiana, got it. Okay, we might go eastern, got it. We might go a little west, but it's like like Utah stretching, like like Texas might be the west. And they're like, okay, well, can we get past Texas? Like, ah, you're stretching. Even Texas, like, I don't I don't know. It's weird, it's different, it's stretching. Then you get into California, it's like we know wine.

unknown 51:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

And Chris and I have never had an issue with that because they blend wine, they know blending wine very well. They don't make their own whiskey. They haven't in the past when we first started. So, okay, so you're not making your own, but you know how to blend. And you know how to blend to uh uh demographic that enjoys depth, that enjoys more than just ooh, I can taste alcohol. Like it is a depth, it is a variety, it it is spanning, right? It just spans over white to red to mix to whatever, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:23

But we can blend that. Yep, exactly. And I'm going back to the fact that I believe Matthew McConaughey is the linchpin to. Like, I mean, you talk about what you're describing.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

You talk about that, and they're like, okay, we don't make whiskey, but we can blend wine. Let's source whiskey and finish it in our barrels and then blend it. And you're like, whoa. This is like steak, but different. And then you're like, whoa, crap. This is this is like a dessert, but like, what am I?

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Oh, like this is oh what wait, I can eat this with steak, I can have this, I can have this before the steak, I can eat it with the steak, and then even after dinner, right? This could be like a nightcap.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

And then you drink something else, you're like, oh crap, this is like an appetizer. So I have appetizer steak, I have dessert, I have blending throughout. I what the hell am I drinking? Because we talked about cocktails. I can have cocktails before I have a main dish, before I have food, and then once I have food, I can't have cocktails. And then I have whiskey, and it's like, can I have whiskey while I eat food? Oh, I don't know if I can, and then I have dessert. Okay, this okay, whiskey is kind of like okay. And then I have a cigar or a pipe afterward. Like, that's great, but like what happens in between? This is the like in betweener. This is the like, I can figure out what fits. I can have pasta, I can have seafood, I can have meat, I can have this, I can have that, because it is so well blended with the wine to get like there's so much going on, but so well blended that you're like it's it's like, but it's also like a deep breath of like, huh? I can have this, like I I can enjoy this. It's not like have it, can't have it, can't, have it, can't. It is like I can have it, and that's a smooth, maybe even a rough transition, but it's still a transition between this, that, and the other.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

But to clarify, this bottle is not blunted, right? This is not a finish, right? This is just a bourbon and a rye combined, it's done by a wine history area, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Yeah, an owner that owns a lot of wine businesses, right? So, so what are they gonna do next?

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Yes, exactly. Like there's so much more. I I a little bit worry that Redwood Empire being owned by a wine brand, right, might start finishing in wine, and I think that might be too winy because this almost tastes like it's finished in wine, like it there is that sweetness from that, like it almost tastes like it's finished. It's a very sweet, wine-like, tannin-y drink. That if you were to finish it, it would almost be like adding wine, like it would almost be too wine forward, right? So, what I hear you saying is don't go too far. Yeah, don't go too far.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

I just like please don't go too far.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

And I actually agree with that, yeah. Yeah, don't go too far. But this is great that maybe they're gonna start start finishing when their normal stuff is already kind of whiny, and I don't know why it's whiny, like I don't know why wine or like that that sweetness is what I really taste because it's not necessarily their mash bill. Their mash bill has a decent amount of rye, and then this this particular bottle has a rye added to it, like this is a rye forward kind of bottle, and so it's already kind of a spicier thing that I don't really taste. I taste a lot of sweetness. Like, I do know it's there's rye in here, like I can taste those those rye, spicy notes, but it's it's like a spice added to an apple pie. Like it's a it's an apple pie spice, it's a cinnamon nutmeg kind of spice versus a uh versus like a pepper spice. Um and so it because of that, it's already on the sweeter side that I worry that they may start finishing their barrel, their their whiskies in wine barrels, because that makes sense that you would, that it then will become too sweet. So I'm I'm a little I I could I could sense maybe an issue with California whiskeys in the future as they finish in wine barrels.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Yeah. If I had to like, if I was clairvoyant, I would think, okay, well, maybe they'll accidentally they'll they'll like experiment on something actually and go too far, yeah, and then they'll pull back a little bit and then get it, you know, hit that right flavor profile that let you know everybody's gonna be like, This is amazing. From like come going back to our previous conversation, going from wine.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

I can see some issues there, but for this particular bottle, this is a heavenly bottle. I'm a really big fan of this bottle. Um, I really want to buy this bottle. So I really like this bottle. Um so yeah, so uh I'm I'm gonna have to figure out my I'm gonna do a couple extra tastings with watershed so I can pay for this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Well, awesome. All right. Till the next time, gents. Till the next time. Thanks, guys.

Final Toast And Listener Support

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Thank you for listening to the podcast. If you want more great content and other perks, be sure to support the show by clicking the link in the show notes. We can be reached on our website, whiskeychasterspumba.com, with any ideas for the show. Thanks again.