Little Book Chapter 2!

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to the Whiskey Chasers, where we talk about our passion for whiskey and its history, either amongst ourselves or while interviewing distilleries. All while enjoying a glass. I'm Steve. I'm Nick, and I'm Chris. Please enjoy responsibly while enjoying this week's episode of The Whiskey Chasers.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

Well, we got Little Book Chapter 2. Steve is still out on his tax sabbatical. I don't even know if you can call it a sabbatical at this point. Seems like more work. But we got Herm on as a guest. Herm's back on chapter two of Little Book.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Drinking and piping.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Yes. We got Little Book Chapter Two, No Simple Task. No E. No Simple Task. No Simple Task.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

I like that.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

A little play on words there with the the No, yeah. Freddie No Jr., you know. Dude, if they had named one of their kids Yes. Yes, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Yes, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:05

Yeah, that would that would be very interesting. This guy came out in 2018, so just a year after. Uh, but as the the first chapter was the easy, what he thought was a very simple task. This is now no simple task. And it has a lot to do with the research that he did for this. Not just the research, so the research that he did, but also what it took to create this bottle. So Chris is gonna be very, very excited because Chris is a Canadian whiskey guy. I always say that and then question, Am I right in that? I would say you're a Canadian guy. Oh, yeah. Yes. I would say at this point, I am so this has got some small-aged Canadian in it, but the reason it has got Canadian in it is when he decided after his first bottle, uh, first little book, he decided, you know what, I want to take some time and go up to Canada. Beam at this point, Centauri owns them, right? So they've got um Alberta Premium, which is theirs. So they've got Alberta Premium. He thought, you know, I learned a little bit when I went through our kind of our blending department, so to speak. But Canada is known for their blending. They age and distill everything separate and they blend it all together for the final product. I want to go up, I want to visit our Canadian distilleries, and I really want to learn what they do. I want to learn this art of blending from them because they've obviously done it very well for quite a while. And not just done things very well. They take raw ingredients that has been distilled separate, aged separate, blend it together to the point where people tasting Canadian aren't going, Ooh, I can taste all the corn out of this. Ooh, I can taste this was aged separate. You know, like they blend it so well, marry it so well together that no one questions how it got there. They just think it tastes very, very well. So he goes up there and he tries about 40 different recipes.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

That sounds like a pretty good gig. Getting paid to try them out, long day of work.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Chris, Chris knows this. And as a maybe as a listener, you'll understand this. I don't love Canadian because it it it's pretty much all coming from the same like five to eight same distilleries. It's like the same product, it's the same, very slight difference.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Kind of how I feel about Irish, right? Exactly. They all kind of taste the same. I equate it to Irish in the in the same, but in a good way. Like there's a lot of different Irish out there. I think they all taste fairly similar. Doesn't mean it's bad. No, no, without a doubt. Same thing with Canadian, and I agree with that. Like a lot of Canadian runs together, but there are some variations, but it's just its own type.

SPEAKER_04 3:50

But to say that everything just about everything tastes the same, and we're coming out of like eight different distilleries. For him to be like, I tried 40 different recipes, I'm like, what were you finding?

SPEAKER_03 4:02

They were all running together. Yeah, and that's where I'm jealous of those like the guys who are masters distillers and have these crazy palettes. And it's like, I know what I like, and I can maybe pull a flavor or two, but you know, like they're they're going into depth, and it's like this, you know, it's got this level of viscosity, it's got this flavor pro, you know, this little length of finish, and then they were able to marry it together. It's it's a it's super unique skill. I mean, it it goes to show like he he's good. I think, especially for Canadian whiskey to be like I picked out 40 different things. That's that's insane.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

That's insane. Like, that's that's insane to me. Of like, we tried 40 different recipes of Canadian.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

How long of a period was this?

SPEAKER_04 4:41

One day, uh right. So he went up there, he started the the road to to do this early in 2017. So I'm gonna assume right after Little Book Chapter One was created, he decided let's go see how different places in the world distill their spirits.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Well, Canadian uh distilleries are a lot different than a bourbon.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

Well, so you take I want to go see how other places distill throughout the world. I got to try 40 different recipes with my interpretation of Canadian, they pretty much all taste the same. How are there 40 different recipes? But as an American, I mean a true bred American distillery of bourbon, now you're saying I have a respect, or maybe I want to have a respect for other distilleries in other countries and how they distill their stuff. That's pretty cool. Like I I have a respect for that knowledge, like wanting to have that knowledge and willing to say we're not the only ones that can do what we do. I want to see what everyone else can do. I think everyone else has a place for what they do, and I want to learn how they do that. I respect that.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

I think it's another way once again, that's another way to look at innovation. And it's like we don't we can innovate by doing things differently, or we can innovate by doing things that other people have done for hundreds of years and that are tried and true. We just don't do them here, yeah. You know, or little subtle differences in in kind of how they operate and how they you know how how the distilling process works, and you know, it's like you look at like sour mash versus like traditional, it's like just the slightest difference makes such a change, and they can make it help be them them be more efficient, or you know, it could help on other things too, but not just the blending side of things. But you know, you look at the blending side of things, and it's like if you're able to make these taste different, how do you do it? Little tweaks, maybe you had the same thought process, like uh all this stuff tastes the same, but those taste different. Let's go see what they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 6:42

But can you imagine as a pure, I'd like to say a purebred Kentuckian at that point? Like your family owns a distiller, you've grown up with your grandpa 200 years, yeah. Like your great-grandpa, your grandpa, your dad, now you like you've you've lived through generations or your distillery has lived through generations of your family doing bourbon, Kentucky bourbon. To now you saying, running up to Canada. I'm gonna run up to Canada and I'm going to. I've got all this family history and knowledge of what we do, but I'm going to play dumb to try to figure out what you do.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

It's like a it's like a like a the the child of uh you know like a great Scotch company. It's like we're we're just gonna pop over to Kentucky and see how they do things. Like, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, we're not gonna do that. Yeah, that that's that's not how we do things around here. Why why would you want to go do that? Um it's like Nike going to look at what Reebok's up to, right? Exactly. Yeah, but they were it sounds like he was all in about this Canadian um aspect to batch number two.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

He was, and the the main reason uh if you look at batch number one, right? He goes through this department within Beam that says we are we're looking to blend. What we do is we blend, but we blend what barrels we have to create the same product every time. And it's always a finished product by the time we blend it, in the sense that it was distilled together, you know, corn, wheat, rye, barley, all of that is part of the mash bill, then we age it. Whereas Canada goes, we've got corn, we've got wheat, we've got barley, we've got rye, we've got them all separate, we distill them separate, we age them separate, then we blend it. And for him to go, what we do as America is very we do it very well for bourbon. What we don't do extremely well is taking what I tried to do with chapter one of the raw ingredients, separate ingredients aged separately, and blending those together to create a final product that tastes good or tastes like a good bourbon or a good whiskey at that point. So that was his idea of like, let's go up to Canada where they do this well, closer than Scotland at this point, uh, but let's figure out how they do it and let's see what the blend looks like. As they talk about it, he got up, you know, he got to try stuff straight from the barrel before they even blend it. That would have been a lot of fun for me of like trying Canadian distilled spirits from the barrel. Yeah, straight from the 100% rye, straight from the barrel. Canadian rye.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Well, and I think I you it when I think back to like you know, the first bottle being, you know, name no easy task, right? Or being easy, easy, easy, right? So, and uh you know, maybe maybe it was just like one of those things he threw something together and was like, Man, this actually worked. This is great, this is so easy, right? Like, yeah, one or two iterations, boom, I got something that's a winner. And then I think he probably went back to that same, like, okay, now how can I be different? And I'm my guess is he probably went through dozens of trial and error and was like, maybe I was wrong. And then, and in a sense of like, who else does this? Where can I look? And it was like, Oh, well, let's go to Canada, let's go. They they do this, they do it like this, let's go see how they do it. Um, and to learn, I mean, it was a learning experience. So I can I definitely can respect that from him. It's like my family's done this for so long, but I'm willing to to go learn and try to find something that's unique and different.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

And what I love about that is you got like Alberta Premium that throws in old granddad in the blend at the end. So you've got Canadian whiskey that's like, we're gonna throw in some American, but you don't have American whiskey that's like throwing in some let's throw in some Canadian, which I I love it.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

I I love the idea of it, but I'm loving this flavor profile, dude.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

So funny thing is, he came back from Canada and he's like, huh. What if I threw him, what if I used Canadian whiskey and American bourbon to create a blend that married so well that anyone was like, wow.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Yeah, that's what he's doing because the beginning of this is like so Canadian and rye, like Canadian rye without some of that maple sweetness, which thank god, you know what I mean? It's not clawing. But I tell you what, you do get and it's middle the way through, and it goes into the finish. I'm getting this super, super, and I think it's because it's contrasting with this Canadian, super creamy vanilla that like coats your mouth and your teeth and everything, and then it goes into this finish, which actually has this kind of it kind of comes back up a little bit. It's got a little bit of that burn for sure at the end. Yeah, it's got the Kentucky hug a little bit at the end. Yeah, it very much starts like it's uh it's all it's like it's very much like that kind of like that smooth, it's like the little entry, like, oh, this is this is pretty mellow, and then it's like, oh, this is really good. And then it's like, oh yeah, this is nice, like it's got it just kind of every kind of layer, it kind of just stacks. Do you guys get that vanilla? I'm getting this super creamy vanilla. It's very, very sweet, real sweet. It's very different than the first batch, too. But the beginning is way Canadian. Like when you first put that in your mouth, I'm like, well, this is it starts, it starts real muted for me. Yeah, yeah. And then it's just like, whoo, okay. You either like that kind of flavor or you don't. But either way, even if you don't like it, it set yourself up for those other flavors later on.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

You know, what's funny is uh by chapter three. So we have one, two, and three. Now you've got three products, three of their little their chapters, three of their bottles, three offerings. Number two was the most hated bottle. Number two, what fat four came out, four was the most hated, four and two were the most hated. Then you get into you know, seven, eight, all those.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

You've got a consensus on why necessarily.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

So people did not like chapter two because of the Canadian.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Yeah, I can see that. It's it's in the forefront because it's like the first flavor that you get, but it sets the stage for the other flavors, like it makes you appreciate the other flavors more, I think.

SPEAKER_04 12:40

And I think the reason that I will never hate this bottle is the appreciation of why he did what he did. So you go up to Canada, you try their stuff, and you go, Golly, this is maple syrup. This is sweet. This is like this is just I there's no punch behind it. It doesn't pack any kind of punch, it is just floral, fruity, sweet.

unknown 13:03

That's Canadian.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

That's Canadian. So he comes back and says, Well, how can I how can I combine the two flavors together? We got American that is it's a punch to the face. Uh it's the American eagle clawing at you, kind of feel, right? And you got Canada that's like sorry, like it's like sorry. How do I combine the two? So he takes an American rye, a Kentucky rye, and then two Canadians and blends those together. Yeah, yeah. To create Kentucky rye and two canadians. Yeah, that makes sense. So you've got your punch, you know, that Kentucky hug.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

So interesting that people hate this. I think this is my favorite out of so far. We've only had the one, right? Uh for the podcast. This is I really like this. I think it's better than the first one. I was trying to think of along like what where I where I stand with this, is I like this one better than the first one for that exact reason. Is that it it's a kind of a it's that roller coaster ride that we talk about, right? It's like it's it's unique, it's different, it's kind of gives you an experience. Yes. The first one I would sit and drink all day and I would love it. So good. So good. It's great, and it's just, but it's kind of just love provoking and it's nice and nice and smooth. And we we talked about this when we did, you know, when we did our barrel pick. It was kind of like, well, this one is like your your more traditional bourbon, and it's it's very kind of just here, and it's very, it's good, it's got a little bit of this, a little bit of that, but it's all kind of the same throughout that flavor profile or for that throughout that that's that drink, I guess. And this one is like you you start here and then it's like you finish up here, and it's like, wait a minute, like, what did you that's I don't like that. I want to, I want just something that's kind of smooth, like you know, that we for lack of a term, you know, to everyone uses the term smooth. I'm I'm notorious for it. But for me, smooth is like it's just kind of like level-headed, whether it has good flavor or it's muted, or that doesn't matter as much, uh, or it doesn't in terms of when I say smooth, is that it's just kind of everything is kind of mellow and it's very much kind of even keel. Whereas this one is like you start out and you're like, ooh, that's really sweet, and then it's like, whoo, okay. It's got some heat on the back end. You can you get a little you get a little bit of that rye on that back side. Um, but yeah, for me, it's yeah, it's very much about that experience. And this isn't a bottle I would go to as like a daily drinker, you know where I would drink the whole bottle, you know, I would have a glass of this and I'd be like, no, this is a thought provoking glass. This is not a fastball, it's a change up, like you said, it's a change up. I I like it, and I I love bottles like that. Yeah, for sure. Provoking bottles. But I also think that's why people may have not the masses, the masses like your they like your weed, you know, your weeded bourbon, and they want it to be this script. Your Weller, just I feel like Weller, you know, just kind of want it fits that mold of like everyone likes it, right? But is it the best thing ever? No, is it unique every time you come to it? Yeah, right. Yeah, everybody has a slice, yeah. It's just a plain old chocolate brownie or chocolate chip cookie. You know what you're getting, it's gonna be good, you're gonna like it, but it's the same. You know, it's it's it you it keeps it kind of one. Now you this has some fireworks at the end, you know. It starts, it starts real smooth, real mellow, and like, okay, that's that definitely without a doubt, you know, classic Canadian. And then it's like, oh, there's some fireworks to the end of that. There's America. There's America. Yeah, it's it's and it's got some cut, it's it's custardy, it's got a little custardy thing going on. I really like this.

SPEAKER_04 16:17

So the tag doesn't say uh proof point or anything of the the the blend, right? Or the buyer, the the proof point of the individual bot barrels used.

unknown 16:26

So you don't know.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

I don't know. You got some people that guess, but you've got an eight-year-old rye that is in here. You have a 13-year-old Canadian and a 40-year-old Canadian. So you've got age on on your Canadian. Well, so you got the 40-year-old just says Canadian whiskey, 13 is Canadian rye. So I'm assuming the 40-year-old is probably gonna be a corn whiskey, maybe? Yeah, I mean like where like it doesn't say what distillery it came from.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

You try it all those different ones, but I mean I've never uh you know, so I don't delve too deep into Canadian, but I feel like if you put age on Canadian, is that gonna make it more mellow, more sweet? Yeah, I feel like than anything.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Uh I don't know about sweet as much as more mellow, more oak.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

I think it's all sweet. Yeah, I so I think saying it's more sweet is probably not correct. It's all sweet, but it's more mellow for sure. Like it definitely kind of like an Irish. The same way, like the more age you get on an Irish, it's just friendlier and friendlier and friendlier. Almost to the point where it's like too easy going. You know what I mean? But some people really like that. Like, yeah, I wonder if that's kind of where you get that that that 40-year-old is that very beginning flavor, that nice sweet, and it's just like, well, this is nice. Like it's like almost like a reserve, you know, it's real buttery, yeah. It's real, you know, and then you get that middle, and it's like, oh, this is that creamy, like very much that creamy vanilla, and then at the end, it's like, oh, there's the rye, there's some spice, there's some heat for me. That's something that's it's like that broken in, like when you get to that 40-year-old stuff, you know what I mean? Something that's so smooth because it's been used so many times, so many repetitions, that it's just you know what I mean, like it's just broken in. Like there's no rough edges to anything about it. It's like that that fidget knife that you play with all the time. Exactly. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Five years of fidgeting with this knife and like a bench made. You have a bench made for five years, and it's just so like the washers are so smooth. Yeah, everything is like glass, you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

Here's my uh again, my excitement with little book. If you just start out from chapter one to this, you compare the two, no mind blown. Like, how do we go from chapter one to chapter two?

SPEAKER_03 18:37

But the variation between one and two, massive.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Okay, so chapter one, proof point was 128, right? All American-made stuff, individual corn, uh corn rye, barley, and then some bourbon. This one, we got eight-year-old rye, 40, and 13-year-old Canadian. What do you guys think the proof point on this guy is?

SPEAKER_03 19:03

So if we were if we were purely blind, I would say this has a higher proof than the first one for sure. But now I'm now that you asked the question, I yeah, I uh I think it's probably lower. Um because of you know, and and I think it's because you because of that roller coaster ride, right? If it was smooth ride the whole way through and you still got that burning, but yeah, yeah, you know, it's maybe one 115, 120, you know, you get that same kind of feel, but this one feels like it's got more proof to it because of that late, that late Kentucky hug there. But I would venture to say it's probably about 120. Yeah, I'd say what 120.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

It's uh 118, yeah, close to 119. Yeah, so it's around there. But I you bring up the Kentucky hug, and what I I love rye.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Chris and I love yeah, love, love rye.

SPEAKER_04 19:48

Ironically, because of you. You talk about rye whiskey, and you got that Kentucky hug, but you also have Chris likes to say the warmth coming up. You have flavor that's still not like you're regurgitating the flavor, but just hangs around. The flavor hangs around with this blend, the flavor's there, but it's not there. It's like a nice mellow, muted. For those that aren't like huge rye people, yeah, this would be perfect.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

I would agree with that. You can tell it's a rye, but it's not uh overpowering. Like this is not a like uh like the baking spices, yeah, and all the you know, and this is not a lingering rye.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

This is not a lingering.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

I think the first one had a longer, yeah, had a longer finish than this one does. There's something to do with the fact that after that Canadian fades out, this like American vanilla, but this creamy, creamy, creamy, custardy vanilla comes in, and that's sweet, it brings a sweetness, but then it finishes up with this hug that's like, oh yeah, this is a high proof drink. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 20:52

You know what this reminds me of? And I'm pretty sure this came out before Sazerac did theirs. If caribou crossing was a higher proof, this would be caribou crossing with an edge.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

I think caribou crossing would need an edge a little bit, but yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

That's what I wonder about the proof. I feel like it would be caribou crossing with the with the proof, the edge. But I think this came out before caribou crossing. Yeah, I would take this any day.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Yeah, I love caribou crossing. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Uh, I think I would take this over that. I think this, uh so I I I mentioned I don't like Canadian. I don't like Caribou Crossing because it's too Canadian, it's too friendly. Well, it's just not enough.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

There's not as many undulations in caribou as there is in those.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

If this was your everyday Canadian whiskey, I would I'd be all for it.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Yeah, you know, I I I don't know if I said it earlier. I I heard you say it, Herman. I can't remember if I agreed with you that I was like, I this wouldn't be something I would grab all the time. This is something I would grab all the time. It's not to say that I wouldn't grab it all the time. I would grab it frequently. Yeah, it just wouldn't be something I would sit and drink. Because it is so kind of like it's not like you said, it's not nondescript, but yeah, it's something I'm gonna come back to time and time again. But like the first one, I would sit and drink the whole bottle. Like you're gonna have to like really think about like every yeah. That's a no-brainer, no thinker, like uh everyday drinker, no thinker. Right, that's yourday drinker, no thinker. This is this one's like this is this is something I want very thought-provoking for sure. Readily available, and it's not, it's not, it's not available, is the answer. That's annoying to me. Not even readily, not it's an obtaining. That should be like the best Canadian style whiskey out there.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

I was gonna say this so this is not that's this is not Canadian nor American. No, it's a Canadian style, American whiskey.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

That's that's how I would is that what draws you to it? That's how I would describe it. Yeah, because there's got great the it's got the Canadian aspects with the American spin, and then the blending of the two make its own kind of a deal. I think I mean Canada does rye well. Yeah, they do rye, they do rye well and they make it friendly, they make it approachable. Um, I mean, they just do rye great. Like it just, you know, if you like if you like rye, you're probably gonna like Canadian. It may not be your favorite. If you now if you start in with Canadian Rise and you go to American Rise, you're like, Whoa, these are this is a different ball game. Like this is different. Um, but I think that helps to to kind of like say you creates that balance. Um, they just do it well. Like it's it's always their ryes are very smooth, they're very mellow. They're the the toasted bread rye. Yeah, they're not the pumper nickel, they're not the oh, whatever, like this has got a lot of heat. This has got a lot of bike, like this is Thanksgiving in a glass kind of thing. It's no, it's very much like this is the your toasted bread, and and it sticks to your it's this Canadian whiskey is hamburger pie or shepherd's pie.

SPEAKER_04 23:49

I was gonna say what is hamburger pie. I was like, Well, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_03 23:53

Shepherd's pie is a little bit more fancy. A hamburger pie would would be more like Canadian whiskey, I think, just because it's it's hamburger instead of lamp. But same idea. So it's like good. I love that food. I freaking love that food. Sticks to your ribs, it's comfort food, it's good, but it's not like you're not going out and spending a lot of money on hamburger pie or shepherd's pie. You know what I mean? It's a basic, good, decent dinner.

unknown 24:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

That's Canadian whiskey in general. This almost this is not this elevates Canadian whiskey. This elevates it. This is like your oh, we do a shepherd's pie with a five-star restaurant. Yeah, this is a five-star restaurant. Wagu, and these these potatoes were chef princesses. Were hand hamburger bottles were hand were hand-grown in a private indoor garden. Right, grass-fed beef. Yeah, we we the butter was made from cows that have been force-fed bottles of butter butter. Butter butter, yeah. They were cannibal cows that made force-fed Irish curry gold butter.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

It's butter squared, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

This is butter squared, and it's aged. It's aged. Yeah, that's what it that's what it is. It's that's really that's what I think. Canadian whiskey is just good for me. Uh, that's what I like about it. It's it's it's just a comforting thing. This takes that and elevates it. See, I I would love this. And like uh I could just go buy a bottle of of this. Like I it's just so unique, it's so good. It's such a good marriage between an American whiskey and a Canadian whiskey, making its own kind of a deal. Do you think something like if you took this bottle and you put it at a lower proof point, would it be as good? No, no, I don't think if you change this bottle in any way, I think it might uh really suck like hard.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Yeah, so talking proof point by the the I love the website Breaking Bourbon, by the way. If they've got the bottles, they try to somehow get the recipe. Yeah, so they say it's uh undisclosed uh blend of three whiskeys. Eight-year-old Kentucky rye, straight rye at 119 proof, 13-year-old Canadian rye at 112 proof, 40-year-old Canadian 100% corn whiskey at 138 proof.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

And that's where it's interesting. That is the front, that's that fried note. Canadian corn whiskey is just an interesting concept in general. And I'm wondering if that's where this vanilla pot comes from. I think that's where that very first note comes from. That very it's like it's real sweet, it's like it's like your powdered sugar into like your you said you custard vanilla custard in the center, and then it's like, oh, there's the there's the rye on the back end. It's the spices.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

I can also understand why people do not like this bottle.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

I don't think, yeah, I guess you're not most people know because this isn't beam.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

This is doesn't fit the mold. It doesn't fit the mold. It's a unique it doesn't fit the mold for anyone. For any it hasn't been done before. It hasn't been done before.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

If you like Canadian, you're probably not gonna like this. Yeah, and if you like American rye, you're probably not gonna like this. If you're a beam guy and you love the beam profile, it's not that either. If you're a couple weirdos like us, you might love it.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

The challenge, I think in my head, the challenge that I love is the challenge of blending Canadian whiskey with American whiskey, period. But then you take it a step further and go, I'll get Canadian corn whiskey. I'm gonna get two different whiskeys from Canada, two different ages from for those. Very different ages, very different ages. And then I'm gonna take uh an eight-year-old straight rye, uh, American rye, and I'm gonna blend it. So toss that in there. Right, we're just gonna toss it in there. So you get the uh you get every step of the roller coaster, you get every every step on the the the trail, right? You you got this sweet corn. Okay, now I'm going into a sweeter rye, and then I'm going, oh shit, there's the there's the American punch rye. There's the way down right there. But it doesn't last as long as the normal American rye. So it's like there's the rye. It doesn't, yeah, you're right. Oh, but that's not the rye that I'm used to.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Fleeting. Right. But which makes you chase after it for another sip, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

I I'm loving it, dude. I I love it. I love it for what it is. I I love and appreciate this bottle for what it is. If I saw on the, you know, proud on the label, not just little book, but on the label, not the tag, this is the the blend, and I saw Canadian whiskey. You try to blend it yourself. I probably wouldn't go for it. I'd be like, meh. Like this is I don't like Canadian. I don't want to go for it.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

You know what I mean? Tell me what's in it so I can make it myself. Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:23

But not knowing exactly what's in it before, and normally I I open up the bottles before I look at what's on it, like what's in it. Yeah, just so I'm not like uh you know gonna be swayed either way. After trying it, I'm like, wow, this does something. I don't know that Canadians understand what this does for their whiskey, and I don't think Americans understand what the Canadian whiskey did for American whiskey. Like they they married so they were blended so well together, married so well together that one helps the other.

unknown 29:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

There's not one that takes away from the other.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

I think it's just unique, and I don't think anybody expects it. Would be like some blonde-haired dude and some brown-haired girl having a child that comes out redhead. Like, where did that come from? Hey, that's my kid. Talking to my kid, yeah. Where did that come from? I think it's my kid at least. So awesome. You know what I mean? You're like me, unexpected, but very cool. All right, very cool.

SPEAKER_04 29:24

Name name another bottle outside of bookers, maybe outside of bookers. The beam does that's a thinker, dude.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Name another bottle that's anywhere close to this. You name me any bottle that's in in the ballpark of what this is.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

That's not a single barrel run of the barrel pick kind of thing. When you say anything like this in flavor or in thought, like a thinker.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

No, there's plenty of thinkers out there in flavor. In flavor. I don't think anybody's ever done anything like this. I not nothing I've had, I've had. And it and it's nice because it's it's very much like a build up. It's not a oh, it starts real sweet, it's a big spike, and then it and it details. It's very much like it, it starts, it's like that, you know, you're zero to 60. You know, you start out going, you build that speed, and then it's like you're right. Let's go! And then it's going up a water slide.

unknown 30:12

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

You don't know where it's gonna go, it's in reverse, you know.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

You've driven manual before. Yeah, do you know? Okay, so the manual cars are my favorite because they sometimes they're older, they struggle to start, right? So when you're trying to turn on the car and you're trying to start and can't turn over. Starting a little hot rod.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

Tell my brain is every morning. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, okay, it catch it. If I it caught my brain, it's all day.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

If I before I try this bottle and I know what's in it, that's what I'm gonna picture this as. It's gonna be all over the jittery, all over the place, trying to get something started. This is the uh this transitions are there. This is the stick shift where you're like, I got a smooth shift into the next gear.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

This is oh man, just forgetting to shift down. You're starting in third gear, and you go at the light and you just burn that clutch a little bit and it gets going, and then you pop it into fourth, and you're like, that was a nice little smooth transition. I skipped the first two. You're like, wait, I'm already at 80 miles an hour. Hang on. So probably should slow down. I used to do that on purpose. My dad would get so upset. What are you doing, man? I was like, what up? I'm gonna be going fast in a minute.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

So, in that analogy, do you think this is missing something at the front?

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Dude, here's here's what I'm gonna say about this bottle. This is finished bottle, this is not missing anything. This is perfect the way it is. I would change nothing about this other than the availability of it. Like, like, and even the price, if this is I mean, I think this would be worth 120. I just wish that they would somebody would like come out with this. Oh like and and something like that. Even like even like it. The fact that it's a little book chapter two that they're not doing anymore is like freaking depressing. So what's come on, dude. This is so uh and I don't think there's a market for this, really. I think there's certain people that would like it, and that's it. I like it, I like it a lot. Like, I like it to the point where if I saw this specific bottle, like chapter two, I would get that over like any of the other ones so far so far, chapter one. Like, I know I've had some of these, but we're doing it in them in a row, but like other than other bottles in general. Like, I think that I don't think chapter one was great. I don't think I would buy it, I just don't think it's worth for me worth the money. And I've had an opportunity to buy a few little books and I haven't, you know. I just don't buy them. But this one specifically, chapter two, I like because it's a unique bottle, and it's at 130. I'll pay if it's unique, I'll pay 100. Exactly, dude. Don't give me a run-of-the-mill regular bourbon that's $130 because it only came out once, or it only comes out once a year. Like, you give me something unique, yeah, I'll pay for it. Like, I like this, dude.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

So let's say this is on the shelf.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

I guess not just unique.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Let's say this is on the shelf all the time. Yeah, what are you paying for it?

SPEAKER_03 32:56

I think over 100 bucks would be completely reasonable for this, especially when you're talking about something that's that four-year-old corn whiskey. Like, I don't know how like it's I think it's priced probably appropriately. I think $120 for this is fine. Yeah, I think if you want, I mean, if it's an everyday, all day kind of thing that's on the shelf, I think $100 is your sweet spot, honestly, because you're pricing yourself at the higher end, but you're not like it's not limited anymore, so you can lower the price, right? With it being limited, you gotta up the price a little bit. But yeah, I think unlimited $100. Holy hell, man. I'd be like, this is this is gonna be a good one. I would keep one on my shelf. Oh, yeah. And I drink it pretty often. Like, like like you said, I don't think I'm drinking like glass after glass, but I am reaching for it fairly often. Going to it more than once a week, right? Yeah, I'm reaching for it fairly often. I really like it. I really, really like it. Yeah, it is very good.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

2018 is when this was released. MSRP on this guy. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 33:52

I'm guessing it was over 120 or whatever. Probably 119, 120. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine they went down 100 bucks because he lost faith in himself. 100 bucks. He went from 120 to 100 bucks because he lost faith in himself.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

This is 2018.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

No simple task. Well, so the 17 was 120.

unknown 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

Uh let me see what MSR. I wonder if it didn't sell as good as they thought it might.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Maybe they wanted to say it wasn't very popular. I wonder if it did go down in price. Well, that's good for us. Is it still down in price? No, could demand keep going down. Little book is terrible. Drive demand down. We should just buy a little podcast on Little Book sucks. It's so bad. Let's get that demand down so you can bring the price down. Matter of fact, you should just send them all to us and we can dispose of them. Speaking of, I did see an article that uh the bourbon boom is over. I'm down with that.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

So little book chapter one in 2017, MSRP was 80 bucks.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Oh, chapter one.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Chapter one was 80 bucks.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Okay, yeah. So you had originally said about 120. So it was a direct competitor to Bookers. Yes. I feel like if you were a Bookers guy and you saw this, I would pull the trigger. Yeah, I'll try this. Uh chapter one or chapter two?

SPEAKER_04 35:01

Well, chapter one.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then I mean chapter two, if you like chapter one. So but then I could see why this will be a disappointment. Chapter one did so well, they upped the price and it didn't do well. Well, it didn't go over well because it wasn't the same.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

It wasn't like 20 bucks. Why just 20 bucks? Why 20 bucks? Because because we decided to put something else on the box.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

I think if it sells at 100, it'll sell at 100. Yeah, I mean, I think they probably saw that there, okay. There is demand here. Let's see if it'll sell. Starting out at 80 and going to 100 and going 120. I think. I think realistically they tried it and like, what would you pay for this? And people were like, man, people, I think, I think people would pay 120 for this, right? But we don't know. So let's start at 80. Let's let's price it the same as bookers. We know bookers will sell. People who like bookers will like will try this, right? And it's a it's relatively affordable. And then it sold well, and they're like, okay, well, we can make this because it's a limited offering, it's not a this doesn't come out four times a year like your bookers. Let's bump the price up a little bit and let's see how it does.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

And I mean, and that's just I mean, that's that's good business, right? Like you're gonna you start off with your bag and then you're negotiating something. But also, there's a four, you gotta yeah, negotiate. I don't, I wouldn't know anything about that. You're negotiating something else, but uh you but you also gotta think the the price may have gone up because of the price of the ingredient. You dictate how far we go as far as the price of the bottle goes, is what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah. We're talking about bottle prices here. Bottle prices, yeah. But uh you you think, I mean, a 40-year-old Canadian is probably gonna earn 30 or whatever it was, that's gonna be a little more pricier, I would presume. So your cost of ingredients probably went up, and they were probably like, look, we want to keep our profit margins the same, we have a demand, let's bump it, let's see how it does. You know, worst case, we can always you know bring it back down if if if it doesn't do well, and it did well, and I'm guessing chapter three was a little more or was right around that same price. Like, okay, well, we got 100 for this one, let's push it to 110. We'll go to 110 or 120.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Have you noticed that um this tobacco is burned into like a nice white ash? Have you noticed that? Um, I've been talking a lot, but I've been so I look I I actually like this one. Um, this is how you like it. You want to talk about what we're smoking? Yeah, so we're um so I had to uh I pulled the can up because I wanted to read a little bit more about it. So this is the Cornell and Deal Pennington Gap. And what it says on the on the can is um it says from the tip of Virginia, an all-American blend with a southern accent, nutty Kentucky cube cut burley, rich black Cavendish, balance the unique aroma and flavor of Louisiana Parique, finished with bourbon for the touch of southern hospitality. So for me, I don't get a lot of the pareek. Uh whereas like typically when you see perique, like you know a perique is coming, like it's here. And I think the Parique did a really good job of balancing out that Cavendish, so it's not too sweet, not too like not too spicy. Um, it kind of I think, and that's what we talked about that. I said, you know, I think they kind of threw the Parique in at the end, it was like, it's a little too sweet. Let's toss some pareek in and balance it out, balance it out. Um, spice it up too. But I've actually really been enjoying the room note as much almost as much as I've enjoyed smoking it. You can't say that very often, right? Yeah, and that's kind of why I was I was kind of Paul. I I you know, I lit it and I had I had you know, I puffed it a little bit and um and enjoyed it, and I was like, man, this is really good. Um, and then I was sitting here talking and I got actually a note and it smelled a lot like a little bit like a cigar. Yeah, yeah. The room note very much has that it not a not a really like cigars tend to be overpowering a lot of times. The scent of cigar is very different than a pipe. Um, anybody who smokes or but is around a smoker, they know like cigars are they they will hit you in the face, you know. A pipe is like, oh, what's that? Like that's that I got maybe I like maybe I would like smoking cigar, like if you you either like it or you're like, Well, that's awful. Um, and it's very much that like you walk into the cigar shop and you know, you get that like that hint of like man, somebody's been smoking a cigar in here, and it smells really good. Smells good, like the the good tobacco smell, not the aromatic, but a good tobacco smell. You don't get too purely tobacco, yeah. No, it's very rare. Usually, yeah, if you're getting a aromatic, you're getting those, well, that smells like vanilla or cherry or whatever. This is very much that pure tobacco. That's a good quality cigar in a cigar shop, that humidor smell. Very, I mean, that's exactly what I what I'm what I'm smelling in a room note right now. And it's like, I've kind of enjoying the room note more than I was enjoying smoking. This is one of those scents that, like, you know, like when your grandparents smoked a certain blend of something and they had that smell to them. This is one of those smells that I'd be completely fine with people associating with me. It's not aromatic, but it's not a bad tobacco. Walk into grandpa's study where his newspaper is laying on his on his on his desk, and this has got the note you want for a non-aromatic tobacco. It's good and it but it tastes great. There's something to it. I I can't put my finger on what it is that it's almost like a fig, or there's something there. A little bready kind of. Yeah, it there's some kind of it's a little sweet. Um, there's some note there, and I can't put my finger on what it is. You know, I'm guessing it's probably the Cavendish, but it's almost like nutty in a sense, where which is typically what you would associate with burrow, but it's like a sweet the way that I hazeled when um me and Steve cracked this open was I got some cardamom and I got like an Earl Grey tea. Yeah, it's yeah, there's something milk and you know what I mean. Like it's not like a harsh tea. It's very creamy, like the smoke itself. It's a very creamy, very like you smellow, it's not super harsh. Like I said, and that's why I was like, I kind of got that that cigar like room note. And I'm like, man, it doesn't it doesn't have any kind of cigar flavor to it, yeah, but it has that room note and it's a it's a the good room note. It's not a popular tobacco. I don't think many people even know about this. This is a favorite. Honestly, never. I mean, Cornell and Deal makes a lot of blends, they make a lot of stuff, but a lot of their stuff is like super popular. This is not one of the yeah, they have no, yeah. This is not one I'd heard, you know, when you go looking like, hey, what's you know, well, I'm getting into tobacco, right? I'm starting like you know, I'm I'm pretty new to the pipe smoking business, right? Like, and so for me, you know, go on you go on social media, you go on or wherever, you try to find out, hey, what are what do people like so I can try some different things and see what the popular stuff is. And this is not one I'd ever heard of. No, um, and I saw you know, when when I after I I had you know a couple puffs off of it, I was like, Yep, I'm gonna take a picture of this, I'm buying some of this. Well, and the components are unique, like they're they're throwing in some different things, you know what I mean? Yeah, as far as it's got a little bit of everything, it's like one of those like oh we got a little bit of everything in here, but it's it creates it for some somehow, some way, it it kind of mellows every it felt like it creates that balance more so than it's like all playing together, yeah. Yeah, whereas you get like a you know typically you get a Virginia and you get like it's an overwhelming, or you get a burly, and burly tends to can sometimes tend to overwhelm things. And I think this is more of a yeah, this is more of like it's a burly base, but the other stuff adds to it, it kind of adds depth, adds that flavor, and the the room note on this is like I want I want this is what I want to smell like the rest of today. Yeah, like I want to smell that on my oh I want my hoodie to smell like this. Like I this could be like one of your signature like go to oh absolutely. I think I think this is one I'm immediately going to go get. Like it's a good one. Why do you like it, man?

SPEAKER_04 42:13

I think as far as like room note, again, I'm not I'm not a smoker. I I wish I could, but the the the smell of the room note goes so well with this this whiskey.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Yeah, they I mean yeah, Chris has been a rock star today in terms of pairing things up and and like man, the tobacco whiskey pairing has been good. But yeah, this tobacco, it it it's it's the it's the it's your your run-of-the-mill level-headed kind of component. It balances out. Well, the flavors are nowhere near the same, or like they don't they don't contradict each other. Whereas you're typically, you know, you're like, oh, I want to go sweet whiskey, I'm gonna go with a more spicy tobacco to balance them out, or I'm gonna try to mirror that, you know, and add to it. You're either gonna try to balance it out or add to it, and this is uh this is balances it in a sense that it's it's very kind of smooth and across the board, you're getting that consistency, and then you do the whiskey is like, oh, there's my roller coaster ride. Yeah, get a little bump in the road there. I like that. That's fun.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

So we talked about price and what you guys would be willing to pay if it was uh available. Knowing this is not available, what would you guys be willing? You guys really like this bottle. What would you be willing to pay? It's not available, it's not available anymore.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

So, I mean with that in mind, what are we willing to pay, or what would you we think it goes for? What would you be willing to pay?

SPEAKER_04 43:34

I think those are two different things.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

I think it's that's such an annoying question because I know what I would pay for it, and it's too too much. Like you know, too much, too much. I think anything under $200, I'd be happy with. Okay, I think I don't think I could justify anything really. Any bottle over $200, it's hard, it's a hard pillow swallow. When you hit that $200 mark, it has to be something special, really freaking special. Something super unique. If I have bottled. Something that was more than 200, I can't think of it right now. But I typically that's like my like like I'm just you know 200 and same thing with like a lot of things, like 200, anything over 200, you really gotta think about it. You know, it has to be something I really love and I know I love it's something you're gonna consume, especially because it's not like it's something that you're gonna have for the rest of your life, you know, or it has to be something that's like it's really, really, really good. And I'm never buying a new table saw for $500. You're gonna have that for a long time. A bottle doesn't want to be aware, especially one this good is not gonna last that long. It's not gonna last as long as a table saw. And I look, I'm all for sharing good bottles with friends. I'm not sharing this bottle. Oh, this is this is mine, I'm hiding this one in the cupboard. Chucking away, and I'm pretty much drinking the whole thing, and it's if you come over the too damn fast. And I offer you whiskey and you pour this and you mix it with Sprite, we're fighting. Oh, oh yeah. Not argument fighting, I'm fist fighting. Yeah, yeah. If you if you spill this on the counter, I'm licking it up. Yeah, mix in my mix my blankets, mix and mix whatever. I don't care. It's like because you know they're not making it anymore. That's that's freaking annoying. That's so annoying. So, yeah, I would say anything under 200. I'd pay $200 for this bottle. I'd be over the moon for getting this for the hundred dollar retail that it was. You know what I mean? Over the moon. 150 would be an would be an all day, every day, wooden blank. What is it? What is it? How many how many bottles do you have at home that you're willing to sell? I don't have any bottles of these. So watch this one make it out of this house.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

Empty, maybe. No, not even maybe. No, no.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

I was like, wait, where did that where'd chapter two go?

SPEAKER_04 45:33

Chapter two is missing. So in 2022, Mary was the most fantastic wife. If she wants to go back to 2022 and relive this for me, that would be great. Uh, she got chapters one, two, and four through Facebook. About 230 bucks a bottle.

unknown 45:52

Oh god.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Wow. Wow. But you know, when your wife buys it, it's not so bad. It's not so bad. But if somebody wanted to give me this bottle, they want to pay 300 for it and give it to me. Like I will appreciate it as a $300 bottle.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

If so, you think in 2022, this came out in 2018.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

But they don't make it anymore. They don't make it anymore. People were like getting it just for the collecting aspect of it.

SPEAKER_04 46:13

So that's where I justify I'm all right with that. Like, that's I've got three little books that I won't ever be able to get again under a thousand dollars. I can't say that now.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

After the fact, well after, you know, it wasn't like, oh, in that year I paid two.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Well, like this is years after. Now guys are selling like chapters one through four and like $1,500 to $1,600 range as as a as a set.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

Oh my god. I mean, you can't blame them if they're getting it, but yeah, there's a value. I mean, yeah, there's a value to everything. That's what somebody's willing to pay for it.

SPEAKER_04 46:46

And this is one of those, like, I I won't justify paying that amount, but I get that. Like, I get the rationale of like this.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Well, and as a and if you're a collector, right, and and this is that good. This is good, and the value's not going down. And that's the thing with collector. I I can't knock somebody who collects whiskey, you know, as a as a consumer and a collector. Like, I'm collecting, but I'm opening those bottles. Right. And for me, I those guys aren't because they don't even like number two, yeah. You know, or whatever. Yeah, and so they're they have the whole, you know, they have one through eight and they're not all on that and they don't want to open it. Because they're like, uh, you know, eventually this is gonna be worth so much more, yeah, right? Or or potentially, right? Right with the way the market has gone, you look at like a birthday bourbon from 2017, you know, it's a thousand dollars. Like it's like, wait, what? Why this is maximum. It was you paid $99 for this bottle or whatever. Now I turned it $200, but like that bottle for it, it was like a hundred and something bucks. Yeah, they're $119 like MSRP and now they're going for a thousand. So it's like there you can see the collection value to that, but for me, it's it's as much about the enjoyment. So I can't knock a collector who's willing to sit on those bottles and get that money for it. Because I mean, do you people are willing to pay for it? You should sell it for them. Absolutely. I don't blame people for selling something for way more than it's worth. If somebody's willing to pay for it, yeah. If you get a Mickter's 23 or Pappy Vane, like somebody's gonna give you you get it for 200 bucks and somebody's gonna give you a thousand bucks for it.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

You and I debated for a while on the rhetoric set.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

Debate. I'm still I'm still thinking about it if it's available on one of these days.

SPEAKER_04 48:17

I'm still there, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

So they're the the whole rhetoric set, like uh and that will be on a shelf, but I it will be open, it'll just be small portion.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

Yeah, very small portions, like it's cracked, yeah, but there's still like three doors way full. Yeah, you can have a sip six bottles. I think it was six, five or six bottles for three grand. Yeah, which actually isn't bad for that rhetoric set. Uh this was years ago now. I almost bought it that one. Right, it's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

So the collecting and the drinking, and it was like, well, I got these really nice bottles, you know, and they're they have high value secondary or whatever. Um, and for me, it was like I, you know, I built up to those and I got them. I'm like, all right, but I don't want to open them.

unknown 49:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

See, but that's a difference. So and this wants to open them. But well, I want to open them, but I'm like, hey, for me, um, I if I open this bottle and I don't like it, and I know that I could have sold it for a thousand dollars, like that's good. That's a that's a punch in the stomach. The difference between owning something for the collecting aspect of it being high value versus high value for you. Yeah. So, like, if I own those bottles, they would be high value for me. Like, and if everybody said these bottles suck, I'd be like, I don't care. Like, I'm completely happy with what I paid and have the fact that I have them and I can drink them, but it would be little bits because I'd want to make them last. But eventually they would be drank all the way, and I'd probably still keep the bottles because it's just so cool. Like, but when they're gone, they're gone. And that's the thing about the rhetoric stuff. When they're gone, they're gone. Like gone, gone, gone. Like, there's no, like, that's it. Like, there's a same with these, they're the same with McClellan now, like all that stuff. Same thing, like a frog mortar. I have all this McClellan up here, and am I gonna sell it? No, not gonna sell it. Am I gonna smoke it? Yeah, I'm gonna smoke it. Like, I'm gonna smoke it. Like, I'm not gonna sell it. Those things are worth a lot of money. Like, there's people that are paying $500 for those, some of those tens. Yeah, not gonna sell especially with the age that's on them. I'm oh with the age, especially. Yeah, I'm gonna smoke them. I'm not gonna sell them because they're valuable to me. Like, they take you to someplace there, yeah. Because like I would pay that much for these, but I have them already, so I don't have to. Yeah, I would rather like smoke them than get the money that they're worth. And that has that is exactly kind of where my my shift has gone recently. It's like these bottles that have all this value. Like, I I would much rather open four or five unique bottles than have this one bottle of well or foolproof.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Yeah, right, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

Like, well, if it's not not the not a knock on it, it's good, it's it's great, quite frankly, but it is it worth the secondary value to me. Why? Where or I could just go ahead and get something that I really love for 65 and then get something else that I'm gonna really love for another 85 and still have 40 bucks in my pocket. Why the bourbon boom is gone is because there's so much stuff on the market now that wasn't on the market then that that is so much, it's just as good if not better. So much good if not better than the stuff that we're trying to get. So, like, I'm glad. I'm so glad that there was a bourbon boom because without it going nuts, these other distillers, you wouldn't have gotten stuff that like let's innovate, let's innovate you wouldn't have these companies that are just putting out these amazing bottles.

unknown 51:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

And for me, I'd much rather give $85, $90 to a journeyman than spend uh you know $120 for something from Buffalo Trace. Yeah, oh absolutely they have enough. I like Buffalo Trace, don't get me wrong, but Journeyman has like if I were to get a tattoo of a distillery, it would be Journeyman Buffalo Trace. The hype is like these are really great bourbons, they're $50. But then people are willing to pay more for them. And so then because it creates this drive, this demand because they're so limited, you can't get them. Like they're you do they're because the demand is so high, you can't get them in a few years. That's gonna change, and that that that is essentially gonna kill that secondary market. Journeymans put quality, which is gonna make Buffalo Trace really good again. Quality over quantity, and I think Buffalo Trace, those big companies, they they did do that, but then they got to a point where they put quite quantity over quality, a little bit to a degree. And I mean, not to not like Buffalo Trace is a great daily drink. No, they're great and it's a great thing. And they're doing stuff that like if you took Journey Men and put it way back in the day, it would be worth twice. It would be your gym beam of two, twice the value that they're selling it for. Because who else is doing this? Nobody. Who else is putting this kind of quality in each bottle? Nobody, like it's unique. French lick. Oh, French link. Another great example. I mean, there's but you can't get in Ohio, which makes it. It's the same thing, man. Their stuff is so good, and it's like because they're like, let's put some stuff out in the market. Like the market's ridiculous. It's like, yeah, initially, when I was I was more of a collector and I was just trying to get into bourbon, but I wanted to, I was like, I'm gonna get all these good bottles and I'm gonna have all these really good bottles, and then when I really enjoy bourbon, I'll have them. And I'm out now, I'm like, I'm I'm in here for the ride. I'm not I'm not here to say, oh, look at this bottle that I have. Why would I want a 60, a 1965, you know, whatever GTO Mustang, whatever, sitting in my garage at a time. Not your downward guy. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, I have a I have a uh collection of classic cars. Still douchebag. Take it out and freaking drink it. I'm gonna drink it. I'm not gonna show you my bottle of Pappy. I'm gonna pull it down and say it's already open. Here you want to drink life is short. You'd be imagine like laying down. I always think about that. Like, I'm laying down on the street dying. Like, like I didn't drink that. Should I open that bottle? You know, like that's not something you should be thinking of, but I would be, I'd be thinking about it. Should I open that tin? I should open the bottom that tend to be. I shouldn't have to try that that frog morton, you know. Like if you were like somebody that's never got the train on it, yeah. Which, if you haven't tried Frog Morton and you're a pipe guy, like, oh god, yeah, you gotta try it, man. And then when it's gone, good luck finding it or getting it is no replacement. Like, there's replacements for a lot of things in life, not for Frog Morton. There's no replacement. No replacement. Tell me more about why I um I'm gonna just regret starting pipe smoking after McClellan's been gone. I don't, it sucks for you. It's like esoterica. I'm like, I get I come in here and I'm like, I'm like, is that esoterica? And you're like, Yeah, dude, you want someone like yes, yeah, and I'm asking you, like, what's so really is it really that special? And you're like, Yes, it's really that special. But what makes it so special? Like, it's just the best, it's just the best. Like, that's why people love it. You know, it is the best, and you can't get it, and it makes it even harder, like it makes it even more special that you have it, but then it's like you know you you try it and you're like, Man, this is really good. I'm never gonna try it again. I'm not gonna be able to get it. You know, Frog Morton. I'm like, part of me is like, let me let's crack one of those tens. Let me try it because I really want to try. I've heard nothing, like it's like it's like the holy grail of pipe tobacco right now. Yeah, right, Frog Morton seller series. And it's like, but I'm gonna try that and I'm gonna chase that from now until infinity, and I'm never gonna be able to replicate it. And it's just gonna, it's almost gonna like taint my my pipe journey. It's gonna suck you. Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna be like, this actually is the best thing in the world. And I can't. This is the best thing ever, and I can't like allow this bottle, right? This is one of the best bottles ever, and I'm never gonna be able to have it again. So I'm gonna enjoy this minute with you two, and uh I might sneak another pour while Nick's not looking. This isn't as good as I thought it would be. That's not what it's gonna be. I remember the first time I ever tried Frog Morton, and I told Laura, I said, Well, I found it. She goes, Found what? I said, Found my my pipe tobacco for the rest of my life. And I smoked a lot of Frog Morton. And then when they said that they were going out of business, I didn't believe it. That's why all these people online that are like with Sutliff and they're doing those memes, like first time. Well, they're the guys getting hungry. It's your first time. First time, huh? And they're all like freaking out about Sutliff. It's like, dude, when you went with through McClellan leaving, like nothing, nothing tops that. There was people that were like crying about it, you know. Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm like, dude, and that's why I asked you. I'm like, so why would they not like if this was so popular, why not come back out? Like, why not sell the replicate it? And you're like, you think they can't they they they have the that's why they kind of went out when they did, is because they could no longer keep that that same product, couldn't couldn't source the products that they wanted. Tobacco wasn't there, they wanted to look if we can't do it, we're not gonna do it. And that means like more praise to them. Like the fact that you're so good for them to stick to their like, look, I'm gonna we're gonna go out the way we came in. Like, we're gonna we're gonna go out providing the best quality, the best product we can. And we're not gonna, it's not gonna be a oh well, we'll just we'll just sell it to Corn Allen Deal. Yeah, they were offered to remake it. They were offered a ton of money. Yeah, I mean, I can't just said nope. Can you imagine what what like an STG would offer them right now? They offered so much more recipes and give us frog more name and recipe. And the right, yeah, they were offered so much money to dollars. Like, nah, we're good. We got our little lifestyle, we'll we'll survive. We'll we will go out knowing that we did what exactly what we set out to do, which was provide the best product possible. And there's something to be said for crazy. It's like Syrian tobacco. It hurts me, it makes me feel sad. I got Syrian tobacco over here, uh, the frogmorn across the pump. Yeah, that's it's the Syrian that is non-existent. It would be like stinks, yeah. It'd be like saying, Well, I have a couple of unicorns in my backyard, which they don't exist anymore. Like, that's what Syrian tobacco is. I have it. What do you what do you do with them? I don't know. I go out and write them occasionally, right? Like when you ride a unicorn, I'm gonna ride it. Eventually it's gonna die. I'm gonna run out and it's gonna be gone. It's gonna die eventually. We'll crack them and then enjoy it while it's here. I I'm thinking what I'm gonna do. Don't tell the club, unless they're they're probably listening. Well, I think um our like club members for one of the one of the special nights when everybody's there that smokes and stuff. I think I might be bringing something. I won't tell anybody. I'd be bringing a frog, Morton, and we might be popping a 10. I just told everybody. I've been thinking about this. If you wanted to then just like bring it to the club later, we could do that too. It'll be more special. It'll be more special to pop that in front of the bit now, and then yeah, just a little taste. Let me just smell it. A little taste of the rainbow.

SPEAKER_04 58:33

It's fine, just a little taste.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

But yeah, and I think that's what this bottle brings. It's like it's it what you once again, that value. Like, what are you willing to pay for it? It's like me now. I'm like, oh they set themselves up for this never gonna because little book two will never be made again, little book three will never be made again. Which once again brings back to that infinite series. I think that's why they're they're just trying to like, what if we could just bring a little bit of that to the next bottle and to the next bottle.

SPEAKER_04 58:56

I'm excited for you guys to continue on the journey because the value for me changes after I try these bottles and I know what they are. Like I know the process that it took, the respect for it. The value for me no longer becomes like, I'll pay this much. It's like the value is now I get to I get to try this. Not only do I get to try it, I get to share this with someone else. And maybe it's their first time trying it, and they're like, holy shit. And maybe it's their second or third time trying it, and the response every time is holy shit.

SPEAKER_03 59:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:31

Like I forgot.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

Yeah, you'd be real, hey, um, uh, yeah, uh, we got a little bit of this uh chapter two left. You want to help me finish it off? I'd be like, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 59:38

Like the value changes from I'd be willing to pay this much money to who who's gonna value this bottle when they try it.

SPEAKER_03 59:46

Who would yeah, that's how you kind of approach this one with you like Chris, you're gonna love this bottle. I know you're gonna love it.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 59:51

So you're excited to share. That's what sucks about really good bottles is you want to share it, like you want to share them, but then selfishly you're like, I don't want to share them because I don't want to drink all my booze. That's what makes that's what makes sharing them so much more special. Yeah, dude. I learned that, like or somebody sharing with you more specifically, like it makes it mean that much. You're like, man, this is so good. When I would not share something, yeah. When somebody shares me and you share that with me, that they really value, like it makes it so special. You know what I mean? And like to be that generous kind of person, I've learned is like so cool. You know what I mean? Like, it's it's just a good thing to do. And I think that's where bourbon, that's where bourbon lends itself to friendships, man. Like you're you're you like if I crack open a good bottle, I can't wait to tell somebody to share. Like, I'll you know, I oftentimes will text like that's how Nick and I kind of sparked about friendship. We met randomly, and then it was like, you know, I followed the podcast, and then he would text me about, hey, have you tried this bottle? Have you what do you think about Rye? I'm like, I don't know, I don't know where to start with Rye. What do you recommend? Um, and then it was like kind of got to the point where it was like, dude, have you tried this bottle? You got to go get this bottle. And he would go, Oh, yeah, it's really just go get it. You're gonna love it. Um, or you know, or I'm like, hey, I'll bring you a sample, you know, next time I see you, I'll bring you a sample of this. Or, you know, like he shared a sample of one of the Mickter's like limited releases with me. And I was like, because I had wanted to try it, I've been looking for a bottle and couldn't really get one. And he's like, Oh, I have a bottle open, try, you know, try it and see if you like it, you know, if you like it that way, at least you know I loved it. And I'm like, oh, I gotta get it, I gotta get it. And I went out and was like, now I know what I'll pay for this. Right. Because before it was like, I don't really I don't know how I would justify paying that. And now I'm like, okay, I'll I will pay this much for it. Like that, that's exactly what I'll pay for it. Yeah, and then I went out and got it. Like, you know, but then I get a good bottle and I'm like, I can't wait to share it with somebody. That's what's so great about our club. And I feel like when I get a good bottle, I'm like, I want to bring it in, or like a unique bottle or just something. I'm like, man, this was super, this was a cheap bottle. Like I found, you know, around Christmas time, they were running sales and stuff. And so I was like, I'm gonna try some of these different finishes. And I'm like, that rum bot that rum finish that I brought in. I was like, you know, everyone's like, Oh, this is really good. Like, where, you know, where you and like it was on sale, it was like $22. I'm like, What? This is a really good bottle. I'm like, yeah, but it was awesome, and I wanted to share it. There's been times I brought in hundred dollar bottles to just to share with the guys and just to see what everyone else's opinion is of it, but also just to share that like experience. That's the thing about our club is the guys are so we're also like generous, you know what I mean? Like, and we love that aspect of sharing it. There guys are always bringing stuff in, uh, whether it's pipe tobacco or it's bourbon or whatever it is, and and yeah, we want other people to try this though. Like, and I feel like when we first started, we kind of didn't do that. No, yeah, I would agree. Now it's it's so much fun. Like everybody's bringing stuff in the city. I feel like the core has been around for a while too. I think. Like, you know, I I think I'm the I'm the noest obviously member, but I feel like the rest of you guys have kind of been together or have known each other for a long time, and so it's like you kind of know what each other likes, um, which is cool. And for me, I'm like, I'm just trying to like just try to fit in my space here. But I'm like, you know, I was interested in Scotch, and we were at Ryan's, and Ryan's like, here, dude, try this and then go to this, and then go to this and go to this. And it's like, Scotch ain't cheap, bro. Yeah, and you're just like you're talking to a guy who used to spend like couldn't spend more than 20 bucks on something. Ryan's gotten so yeah. I'm like, I like this one the best. I'm like, what's a bottle of that run? He's like 150 bucks. I'm like, oh, and he's like, if you can find it, I'm like, oh, even better, right? Of course, it's the most expensive one that I like, but such a good one, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, and and like, you know, you come look he come to your house and you're like, here's your bottles. Like, just take your pick, you know, and that's I mean, that's how everyone in the club is, I feel like, and so it's the club has been super cool. Whereas, like, you know, I've I've been a part of other whiskey clubs, um, and it's like it's not as personable, it's not as like there's not that shared there, there's a shared experience because they're bringing it whatever bringing a distiller, but they're kind of greedy too. Like, yeah, and it's like, oh, we're gonna do this tasting, and it's a set tasting, and it's like bottles you can find anywhere, and it's like, ah, cool, that was a cool blind, that was fun. Like, and it's I mean it's bourbon and food and whatever, and people, you know, you always get to enjoy it a little bit, but there's just something to be said about like sharing your good bottles, yeah, right, and or sharing the stuff that you it doesn't even have to be your expensive bottles, but like the stuff that you love because it tells a story about like who you are or what you like, and maybe you know, maybe I share a bottle with with Chris and he's like, This sucks, dude. I'm like, Well, I like it, yeah, and you know, granted, like we're not offended, we're not offended about it. It's like, well, I I thought you would like it, but you know, but then you learn like what people like and you learn more about like their their tastes and their their profiles, and it's like every hundred dollar bottle, like every bottle you bring and you share doesn't have to be a hundred and fifty dollars, it doesn't have to be your the down bottle. I've immensely I've immensely enjoyed twenty dollar bottles, you know. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. You know, one of the bottles that you guys recommended to me when I first kind of hung out with you guys is was uh like Rittenhouse, yeah, Rittenhouse Rye, fantastic bottle. Still a big fan and find it anywhere, old Overholt 114. Yeah, amazing rye. You know, we got and that's how I went, and I was talking, you know, jokingly, I was like, I kind of went down that rye rabbit hole, yeah. And I was like, man, I think I'm a rye guy. I I didn't think I would be, but you look in the mirror and you're like, Oh, I'm I'm changing, I I'm here on my chest. Just growing a beard and I'm wearing flannel. What's happening to me? I might not be able to grow a beard, but I do like rye, but yeah, uh you know, and so it was like, and and and then I was like, Well, if you guys like rye and I like rye, maybe I'll like scotch too, because you guys like scotch. So I started dipping my toe into that world. Thank you very much, yes, in a good and bad way, because now I'm enjoying I'm enjoying a scotch as well. And it's like, well, now I look at scotch a little different. I'm like, well, maybe instead of getting a bourbon today, I'll I'll look at a different scotch or I'll try this different. That's a huge step for a lot of people. Steps that they wouldn't have taken otherwise. You know what I mean? And I you know, it's like I'm not I wouldn't call myself a scotch guy. Like I know Ryan is Scotch, looking at getting like over a bourbon that's scooped. And I'm like, this is awesome. You talk talking about.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:01

I gotta I gotta stop you, man. You keep talking about Ryan. Ryan brought the first bottle that he brought to a club meet was year one.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:09

We always give him a credit.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:10

We give him shit about this all the time, but it tells you it it explains why Chris and I, every time Ryan gets brought up about this stuff, they're like, Man, you don't know the the the real Ryan. You don't you don't know the true beginner.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

He's grown so much, man. He brought it. It's our weak boy that's grown into a man. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:30

He brought a bottle, a a plastic pint bottle of Kessler's. Kessler's. No, I've heard this story.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:38

I didn't realize that was Ryan. I've done it. I heard the Kessler's neutral grain spirit. So me, I'm like, and when I'm hearing that story, I'm like, I'm like looking, I'm like walking through the store and I see Kesslers. I'm just like, I almost want to try that just to see how bad it is. And and he and he was so genuine about it. And he poured it. And here's the thing he poured it and I like sipped it, and I was like, Oh you put it behind your back if you're gonna go back. You could tell. I was like, and then I like was like looking for no one to look and like dumped it out. And he was like, Did you dump it out?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

And I was like, Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

He was kind of like, I thought it was good. He was like, I thought it was good. And I was like, it's just not like and then now and then you're now you're talking about the same guy who's like he's so knowledgeable about scotch, he's grown from Kessler's to like, I know everything about Scotch. I would think Ryan has more knowledge about Scotch than I do.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:29

I would never so if I knew Ryan now versus then, I would never put him as you're the Kessler guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:34

Yeah, I would never think you didn't know it was him either. Yeah, would you drink Kessler's now? And he's like, never I would never do that. I don't even know who that person was. Who was that guy? But I mean, everyone has that journey, like that's the journey. Everybody started off drinking this, yeah. I mean, like for me, I didn't like bourbon for a really long time. Who starts off drinking little book? You know what I mean? Shenanigans, yeah. Nobody also some some some pretentious like loser who's pretending he likes stuff. You know what I mean? You gotta have a dirty, you gotta walk, crawl before you can walk, you know. Yeah, I mean, the first so like going back to like even like my journey, the first bourbon I ever tried, like I was like, I'm I know everyone's like all about bourbon. And I'm like, I I just I don't I've never really had I don't really know. So I'm like looking at it, I'm like, what's a good bottle? And and so uh four rows single barrel, perfect. Okay, that's when four rows do such a great bottle. So I got it. Well, I got a barrel strength as my first bottle. I because that that was the one that people recommend, you know, as a real that's uh that's our favorite bottle. And I found one. I lived in West Virginia at the time, so I picked one up and I was like, all right, I'm gonna try to sit down, I'm gonna try to drink this. I couldn't stand it. Like, I yes, I got through it, but I ended up mixing half of it. Well, more than half. Yeah, yeah. If you had gone with a regular, you would have been in heaven. And and and so, well, and I just there was something about like the smell that got me. It was just like it almost was nauseating, like the sweetness, yeah, for me. Like, and I had drink, I mean, I drink tequila and I would do shots of like whiskey or whatever, but I wasn't, I was just a beer guy, like I like beer, and that was kind of where I was at. And then a few years later, uh, I had a buddy who was like, Yeah, you know, like bourbon and blah blah. And he he introduced me to like makers. Yeah, I was like, Oh, this is a that's a great beginner. It's a good, this is pretty, this isn't bad. And I had it mixed with like Sprite, I think, or something, and I was like, This is actually pretty, this is solid, you know. And then I was like, Well, what else would I like? And then I tried like a uh Weller Special Reserve, yeah, another great beginner, like a great just starter whiskey if you you know if you can find it, right? I know I saw I feel guilty saying that, but it was on the shelf, so it was like, and I'm standing there looking, I'm looking, I'm in the liquor store, and the guy's like, What you looking for? I'm like, I dude, I don't honestly don't know. There's this is overwhelming. I'm new, I'm just trying to figure out if I like bourbon. I don't really know. He's like, This is a good one, start with this one. And so I grabbed it and I was like, Okay, I can get with this, and then down the rabbit hole we went. Um, and it was like, and then and now I'm like telling my buddy that introduction to makers. I'm like, dog, you gotta try this bourbon. And he's like, Well, do you mix it with anything? And I'm like, No, no, I don't mix it. Mix it with air in the glass, just air. You put it, you mix the only thing you mix it with is the glass it's poured into. So and and I'm like, We, you know, we'll go out or whatever. Like, even recently, we went out, you know, we're going out to the bar or whatever, and he's the our buddy was ordering, he's like, Well, me those drinks, and he's like, I'll have a makers and sprite. And I'm like, Yeah, let me get uh what what what's the what what kind of bourbon do you want to drink? And he's like, Oh, they have they have eagle rare up there. I'm like, If you sure, I'll take a double of that. And she's like, You want ice? I'm like, absolutely not. Yeah, don't you bastardize my bourbon. And he just looks at me like you didn't even like bourbon like three years, you know, three, four years ago. But I'm like, you know, your taste, your profiles change, and now I'm like this, dude. And I'm like, well, if I like this, maybe I'll like that. And so I've dealt, and that's the one thing I've I've found I don't care for is Irish. And it's not that it's bad, it's just not for me. See, and that's what and that's what's funny, is my family still doesn't get the bourbon thing because we're we're an Irish, like we're an Irish family, and it's like Jameson, drank Jameson's all the time. Jameson's if we were feeling like switching it up, we drank push meals.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Yeah, you know what I mean? Big big jump there.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:08

And uh like that's what we drank, that's what we still drink all the time, uh, and just bottle after bottle, you know what I mean? And when I first got into bourbon, it was before like it was popular, and I just we literally started drinking it, yeah. And I wasn't into Scotch. I told the story, and I just was like, I like this, I like this. And what I I even you know, you know, I would go home and I'd be like, hey, let's drink bourbon. And they were like, ugh, like my brother Tommy's like, no, we have Jameson's, and I'm like, no, I want bourbon. I've got Jameson's 12. And I was like, well, okay, you know what I mean? But I guess if you're gonna twist my arm, but like to this day, like, and I still love Irish, and I'll Irish will always always have a place in my heart. But is it as complex as bourbon? Hell no. Is it it? Does it have this like anywhere close? It's got its own flavor, and I it's like Canadian, where they're all sits in this nook, yes, and there's like not a whole lot of variations, but that doesn't mean it's bad, it's good, but if you don't like it, you don't like it. But I that was I drank so much Irish before I ever got into bourbon. Yeah, like I went to Red Rust 12, people were like Red Rust 12, like that's like the the pinnacle, like that's one of like your your that's that sits on the top shelf. So good, yeah. And like it's good, but it's just not bourbon. Dude, for me, it's it's like watching the Wizard of Oz. Scotch has that something extra. Oh, yeah. And it's just like it's like watching the Wizard of Oz. The first time you ever watch Wizard of Oz, you're like, oh, this is a good movie. This is pretty good. I'm enjoying it. Oh my god, there's color. Oh my gosh, there's color. You know what I mean? Where did that come from? Where did that come from? Like that's exactly what it was like doing in bourbon. I was like, I'm enjoying the heck out of this. Oh my god, there's color. This movie just got way better. You don't see that color. I'm not colorblind, yeah, yeah. Because that's all black and white until it just randomly, boom, she gets into Oz, and you're like, holy colour, shoes are red. Because like, I thought I was colorblind. I'm like this color. So that's literally what it's like. I mean, I and I think for again that talks about the journey. It's like you you be willing to kind of try different things and see what you like, but you can't really pigeonhole anything. Like you look at this, you're like, Oh, it's Canadian. I don't like Canadian, I won't like this. Well, it's not really the same, or it's like, oh, I like bourbon, so I'm for sure gonna like this. Maybe you won't. But that's what's great about these bottles is like they're so unique, they're so different. And shout out to Freddie, right? Because he's done and for so far for the quote unquote, like the failure out of the two that he did, the failure, like yeah. I like from a mass market standpoint. I like this is a fair he's probably like that's my favorite, right? Yeah, you know, he's like, That's my favorite thing. If this is if he was like, I'm curious to just talk to me like what's your what's your favorite one? Like, pick your it's like pick your favorite child, which one is it? Like, number two was it into the microphone, but what's your favorite child? Like, I want to really like I you don't have to tell anyone, just tell me. That would be interesting if he was like, This is so good, and then it flopped for him. He's like, What's like well I liked it or question everything as as like a master, like you know, I'd be like questioning everything, like, oh god.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:06

So I'm curious if that's what ran through his head, because we're going from no simple task to chapter three is the road home. The road home of quitting. Right, it's more than done. Everyone hated this one, so let's just go back. You know, let's go back to the road home.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

But is the road home just a blend of just straight Kentucky Burbers? Let's see. We're gonna find outside of the next episode with Herm.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:30

With Herm, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

Thank you for listening to the podcast. If you want more great content and other perks, be sure to support the show by clicking the link in the show notes. We can be reached on our website, whiskeychaserspa.com, with any ideas for the show. Thanks again.