Heaven Hill 6 year Green Label

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to the Whiskey Chasers where we talk about our passion for whiskey and its history, either amongst ourselves or while interviewing distilleries. Oh, while enjoying a glass. I'm Steve. I'm Nick. And I'm Chris. Please enjoy responsibly while enjoying this week's episode of The Whiskey Chasers.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Yeah, it's a damn shame because they so the whole idea was um who were we talking to?

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Oh, this is that told me about this. This would have been at Justin's house. Because this was around the same time that JTS Brown was being bought out by Heaven Hill because uh maker or because it had on the stick on the back was just a sticker that said Heaven Hill.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

And was it them or was it somebody at Heaven Hill? They told us that they only make the green for the locals.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Yeah, it was only for the local, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

And that's why they didn't sell it. So green was never sold outside of Kentucky because it was a way to give back to the workers at Heaven Hill. Like, hey, because they all knew it was like a stick inside secret that, like, hey, this is gonna be a $20-some dollar bottle, it's gonna be six years old, it's gonna be some of the best stuff that we put out. Like this, this could be like a $60 bottle and we're gonna sell it for, but it was only for Ohio and it would sell out for Kentucky or Kentucky. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, uh, Kentucky, and it would sell out in Kentucky uh because the locals would buy it up. Like, if you were to go to like a local's house, that's what they were telling us. Like, if you were to go to locals' house, they're gonna pull this out.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

At least if they work for Heaven Hill, yeah. Those type of stories really hit home for me. It's because of where my dad works growing up. My dad worked at a and he still works there, Dinley's. It's this book binding company, but every year for Christmas, all the workers got a book, and it was a it was a book that was never sold, it was only made for the workers of this company. It was a reprinting of some sort of a uh Americana thing. So it's an Americana series. They would run uh they would do like series on different journals of different people. They do like Mark Twain's West was in there, so like it's it's his journal from when he was working out West. You have uh uh a lot of the inauguration uh speeches, like series of those things like that. That was all these books, and they were these really nice, uh leather-bound books that were never sold to the general public, they're only given to the workers.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

That's so cool. That kind of stuff is so cool. Makes you feel valued as an employee, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

So this started in 1903 when the company started, and went until 2021, I think, is when they stopped doing it. So the company was sold out and they they decided to not continue doing this. So that series went from 1903 to 2021. Every year, one book, every 25 years, the color of the cover changed a little bit, and so but you can find them now at like half-price books or places like that. You like you can buy them on the secondary market, but there was never a possibility of buying them new, you could only get them from the store. It's like I have all of them from my dad's time working there, that's super special, probably. Yeah, and then I've I've gone on the search, and like that's been my like collector's item. Every time I go to an antique shop, I go and check for them because it's a national brand, so it's not just in Willard, they have a big place in Chicago, they have a big place in a few other places, so you can find it in certain areas. I was going to a church down in Cincinnati, and one of the locals there had worked there, and he was older and had retired and had no interest in having these books anymore. The kids didn't want them or anything. So he gave them to me. So I have like going back to like the 60s up to now, and I have all at least one copy of all of those books. If you go back to like the original ones, you're talking two, three hundred bucks per book at that point, because now it's a collector's item, it's you know, all that in like the very first ones into the thousands, because just nobody has them. It's more hard to get that first one. Yeah, and like it was a smaller company, there weren't that many workers, so they didn't print very many of them. And and get destroyed never they're they get destroyed, they made them for line workers at a factory, like they weren't necessarily reading this type of stuff anyway. So um, so those early ones are really, really hard to find. I can go back and complete the blue series, which is from like 53 up to I don't know, 78 or something like that. Just gonna cost you because they change the color every 25 years. So, like I can go, I've gone back and I could complete that series. I try to find them in the wild. I try to go to half-price books or antique malls or something. And so if it went to eBay, I could if I I could spend the money and complete the series.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

So much more fun not doing that stuff online. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

I want to go and like try to find it. Right. And it's also one of those things that you appreciate it, yeah, and out in the wild, they may not know what they have, and it's not a thing of like, oh, I get it, I gotta, you know, spend money that no one else knew.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

You used to get so much better deals, though, I will say, before the cell phones.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

When people didn't know what they had, like even yard sales and stuff. Oh, yeah, you didn't know what you had and you sold it for what it was. Now everybody googles that stuff because I'm not sure. And then they were like, Oh shoot, I got I got a book that's worth two grand, you know, like yeah, and then you got a wheel and deal, like those guys on that uh the pawn star is like, well, best I can do is this, but it's worth this. Yeah, but I can only get this out of it. Like you, yeah, I gotta make money too. Like, you want to give it to me, I'll, you know, but otherwise, yeah, good luck selling it, kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

But yeah, I found a whole bunch of them out in the wild for like five bucks that if you go online it would sell for every time you found one too, you were like elated. You know, I was giddy, I was so excited. And every time I go to an antique mall, I I look for them. And you can they have a they have an emblem on the spine that makes them pretty easy to find. So I always look for them. And anytime I've ever talked to a bookstore owner, rarely do they know what I'm talking about, which is great because that means they're not gonna bump up the price and go crazy with it. It's nice to have a treasure hunt like this. Exactly. That's all it is, and that's what's become it's just a treasure hunt. It's like I could complete this on eBay, but I want to go and see if I can find it and do all that. So, yeah, it's a fun little thing. And so having a bottle like this that's only available in a particular area to a particular group is always an exciting thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

I'm really sad that they stopped doing this. The the rumor was, and the idea was well, they quote unquote stopped so that they could up the age and make it bottle in the bond, and they released the seven-year bottle in the bond, Heaven Hell bottle. After trying this, that's not the problem for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

This is something completely different. I think they were losing, I think they were maybe not losing, they weren't making a profit. And it got to a point where they decided like I get it, but like yeah, I don't know. If that's what it is, that's that's a shame. But I don't know what it was, but I it's a damn good bottle for a damn good price. And and the thing is, we wouldn't even be really be talking about it if it was a couple years ago and they were still making this. I mean, we would, we wouldn't be talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Other people wouldn't, other people wouldn't care, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

But like it's just it was a it's a six-year-old, very great product from Heaven Hill for a very good price, uh, only available in Kentucky, and that's what it was. Yeah, and it's got some cool, and I love, dude, I love, love, love the art and stuff on this bottle. It's so like Heaven Hill.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

And the thing is that it wasn't uh it was uh special to the fact that it was only Kentucky, yeah, yeah, but it they knew that. So Heaven Hill.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

If you wanted it, you had to go there.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Heaven Hill knew what they had, Heaven Hill knew it was special for that fact, but Heaven Hill wasn't like, okay, we have to charge an uh a crap ton of money for this now. It was we have something special, we have something that people like, it's unique. We're still gonna charge a normal price tag for it. We're not gonna go outrageous for it.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

It's such a great label, dude. There's so much stuff. This is like green label six year, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Green label, six year not bottling the bond. It's the custom made mash, old style bourbon.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Old style bourbon, time tempered. What else does it say? Custom made mash, bourbon at its finest. Every drop is charcoal filtered, distilled and bottled in the heart of the bourbon country, home of master craftsmen whose distilling has still been passed down through the generations, mellow and smooth, made by the same time-proven method since 1788. The most respected bourbon in Kentucky, where bourbon is born. Never a compromising quality, consistent, good to the last drop. Like they just throw all this stuff on here. And I and I love it. Like normally you would hate that. Yeah, but I it's a busy label, but it looks good. I love it, dude. I love it. Yeah, I think it's great. It's got even more on the back. I won't say it all, but it's got it's got everything. Like uh, it's just a damn shame. It's an iconic bottle, in my opinion. And let's talk about the flavor and taste.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Well, the fact that you can't really find anything on this guy.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Yeah, nobody talks about it. It's it's a kept secret. Mashville and it was a kept secret.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

It was a Kentucky kept secret.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah, that's why we and we I remember asking the locals, like we would ask people that live there and people in the little little liquor stores, and they were like, they would like look both like left and right, and they'd go, like, do you want really want something good? Like, this is this is really good. Yeah, this is like you know, and we can only get this, you know what I mean? And they would say it like that, yeah, and like this is this is really good. You should try this. I remember the first couple times we picked up a bottle of this. We're like, okay, you know, like whatever, it's 20-something bucks. And then we were like, damn, this is good. Really good. Yeah, you drink like a whole bottle, I'm like, I've got to replace that thing, you know. Like, that was good, you know. It's not something when you drink it, you're not gonna be blown away. You're not gonna be like Marty McFly in the first Back to the Future when he hits the guitar and it knocks him back on his ass. You know, you're not gonna be like that, but you are gonna drink this and you're gonna drink a lot of it, and you're gonna be like, that is really good. And then you're gonna be like, How much was that? Oh, it was like 30 bucks, you know, or whatever. And then you're gonna find other stuff for like 50, and you're gonna be like, This wasn't as good, you know what I mean? That's what it's great, and then it's gone. F, it's gone, it's not available.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Back in 2017, there's a guy that did a review on it, Modern Thirst. Modern Thirst. That's the the blogger whatever. Yeah, they did a review on this bottle. Yeah, 2017. That was a minute ago. Yeah, nine dollars. Nine bucks. Nine bucks for this guy.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

You imagine nine dollars six years old.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yes, it probably was nine bucks, but 78 corn, 10 rye, 12 barley. I remember buying this for cheap.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Yeah, like under 20. 2017, under 20 at Tom sometime. Well, you know what? 2017, that's when we were buying this. Was it 91?

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Oh, I just bought it like a like the when they when they made it public, this was done. That was the last year that I found a bottle for you and a bottle for me.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Well, we had it before that. Yeah, well, we had it before that, yeah. You had it on your shelf well before that. Oh, yeah, and it was like 20, like I was drinking this regularly, 2016, 2017, 2018.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

What people don't realize is Heaven Hill does the bottle in the bond now, and they they well, they crap on it like oh, it's you know, it's a year older and it's bottle and bond, so it's the si it's the green label, just you know, more pricey. No, because if you look at Heaven Hill, they have Heaven Hill quality house bourbon, which is their old style bourbon, white label, no age statement on it. This is their statement, which is good, but this is their age statement of that.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Yeah, this is that, but an age statement. I don't remember the proof if that is. I don't remember the proof.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Oh, next to nothing. I think they do two. I think they do one's closer to bottom bottom, like 100 and something.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

This one's 90 proof, yeah. And the other one is a great proof point for this. Yeah, that you're right. This is the green is the white age. It's the white aged, it's not a it's not a bottom of the point. I don't think they even changed the proof a whole lot, but it is the white aged at like two dollars more. Nine bucks for this. I mean, I don't know how much the white is now. The white used to be more money, the white used to be less money, now it's probably more money, but even the white used to be a great like I remember the white was $13, like like everywhere, everywhere you could go. And if you've never had Heaven Hill White label, it's a good bar, it's a good bourbon. It's hard, but for $30, it is a freaking um phenomenal bottle. Like, yeah, it's a good, good bottle. Yeah, like I've I've had worse things, like it's cheaper than bullet, or it was cheaper than bullet, and it was way better.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

You know what this reminds me of? What I so in Texas, I've mentioned we've I've gone to this this whiskey event. Each year they have had a pre-fire bottle from Heaven Hill. Pre-fire bottle? So pre before the fire? Before the fire at Heaven Hill. And one was called Anderson's Club, which was Heaven Hill's bottle that they stopped doing after the fire. And the other one was Heaven Hill. Like they're they're but it was it was a black label, so it was one that's not done anymore. Kind of like desperate black. This reminds me of both of those. That has that that it's sweet, but it's not ungodly sweet. It is like a sweet, but kind of mellow.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Yeah, oh yeah, it's very mellow.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Mellow with some spice, like it's got a little bit of spice, but not a ton.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

But all that to say it's not boring and it's not humdrum, and it's and it's not short. Like there's a lingering amount of flavor that you get. Uh it it sticks with you. It's this is more tea, less coffee.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

There are very few bottles that I can I can say I've I've been able to have a glass or a sip of, and I go, This is this is bourbon history. That this is part of bourbon history. This is one of those that I try, and people could say, well, maybe it's it maybe it's a mind could be a mind thing. Mind thing of like, oh, they don't make it anymore. But like the flavor of this, I think it tastes like 90 proof.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

It's traditional. It even says on the bottle, old style bourbon for whatever that is. But I I do feel like this is something I would get in a tavern back in the day. You know, like yes, smoking a pipe. Yeah, it's just very, very classic old school, whatever you want to call it. It's just time timeless? Timeless?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

I'll have I'll have a whiskey. Here it is. Yeah, not what kind of whiskey, it's just I'll take a shot of whiskey. This is a whiskey whiskey.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

This is a whiskey. Yeah, yeah. And it's just not pretentious, even though they throw all that crud on there. It's not it's not done in a way that's gaudy or pretentious, it's just what it is. Well, this bottle is what it looks like a taller Jim Bean bottle or like a uh Well, I was gonna say, you know, in the 50s and 60s, if you came out with a razor or a shaving cream or a foot powder, whatever the hell it was, you saw bottles like this where they wrote everything down. Yeah, everything down, right? Like long-lasting, uh transparent, uh non-grease, uh, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like they would write everything on there. And I think that this label is that. It's so much old school lost now. Um, like, let's put everything on there. Is it smooth? Yeah, let's put it on there. Is it old style bourbon? Yeah, let's put that on there. Is it the best bourbon in Kentucky? You bet your sweet ass it is. Let's put that on there, you know. So I I I just I like it. I like it. I've always liked Heaven Hill, their basic stuff, especially, which this falls in line with that. I just would like to know why they quit doing this. That's my one cool question. Like, and I get raising the price, but quit altogether, right? Maybe they don't want to raise the price on it.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

I think you would rather turn into a national thing, yeah, get it out of Kentucky, make it make it part of their lineup versus just discontinuing it because it's good enough to be on its own, like it's good enough to keep. It's different enough from the bottom bond that you don't need to like like that hasn't taken its place. This is a different bottle than the bottom bond.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

It's kind of set up like the Johnny Walkers, right? You got Johnny Walker red, and what what it goes? Red, green, black, blue, black, double black, blue. Red, yeah. Well, there's gold. So red, green, red, green, black, gold, no, red, green, gold, green, gold, black, double black, because then blue. But at any rate, it's kind of set up like that. And I think that that's actually a smart thing for Heaven Hill. Like, why not do a white, green, black, or white, green, blue, black, or or whatever you want to do. But I do think that this had its place. It still has its place. If you have to adjust the price, keep it in Ohio. People will come get it.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

I wonder if they couldn't keep up with the demand. Now that when people caught on to it, I wonder if they couldn't keep up with the demand. Heaven Hell's a big place. You put out a lot of shit. You're talking white label quality house, but six years old. Well, could they not keep up with the demand?

SPEAKER_03 18:15

And maybe what I'm well, maybe what I'm about to say is sacrilegious, then, but the age of the white a little bit more. So because white's great. We uh but white aged more is great, even better, which is what this is. So maybe take the white and elevate it if you're gonna get rid of the green, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

But if you're talking bourbon 101, this fits Heaven Hill Bourbon 101.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

This is so this is so heavenhill and and 101.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

I and so does the white, but I just like this, like and the heaven the so the 101 series starts with Elijah Craig 101, the the the father of bourbon, right? Why can't this be the start of bourbon? It could be, could be, why not? Like this is so approachable, this is so yeah, price-wise approachable, this is so approachable flavor-wise.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Imagine getting this bottle for nine dollars. I I guarantee they did on sale or whatever else, because they it was like thir 13 bucks for the white, so I want to say this couldn't have been much more. But the thing is, if anybody's wondering, the the white is at least 36 months, so you got at least three years, probably not much more than that, probably about around three years. So you're talking this is double, and it was like a few dollars more. Damn.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

I know, you know, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:31

And you're already taking a great product and you're just aging it for double the amount of time, which is just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Like, and in terms of your point that this is bourbon, like if you want to pick out flavors of bourbon, when you're first starting, you're trying to decide what bourbon taste like. This is what bourbon tastes like. It is caramel, it is vanilla, it is brown sugar, and that's like it.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

That's like that is like it's got nutty aspects like every bourbon has. It's got peanut butter aspects, like some bourbon, like a little bit of peanut butter, but it's got it's mostly if you were to slap somebody in the face and say, What does bourbon taste like? This is it. We could go on and on about the taste of it, but it's just bourbon. It's just the quintessential flavors done right, not overpowering in any way. There's not too much vanilla, there's not too much sweetness, there's not, it's just the right amount of stuff, you know what I mean? Like, but done in a in a very smooth way because it's six years. Because the white's fantastic as well, but the white is a little bit more aggressive. I remember getting a little bit more peanut butter off the white because it is a little underage, more nutty, because it's a little underage, but not peanut butter as much as like Jim Bean, but like there's definitely like some nut, like peanut, peanut, maybe not peanut butter, but peanuts, you know what I mean. But I uh I don't know. I think Steve's right. I think this is like bourbon 101, like what we're talking about. And I and I think that uh this could be what you're saying, Nick, like could be a a starting starting point. And actually, I think if you started your bourbon journey with this, yeah, I think you would have a hard time going back. Because you know, there's things worse than this, or not worse, but there's things less than this that you could start off with and be fine. But I think if I had started with this, could would this ruin me in some ways? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

You know what's interesting. I I just got done editing Little Book Infinite, and I was listening to it on the way here. As I taste this, I go, I've only found one other bottle outside of the Little Book Infinite as of now that reminds me of that. Because Chris, you talk about the Little Book Infinite, it starts out kind of not watery in a bad way, but very light, yeah, and then it builds on top of itself from there. This is the only other bottle that I can think of. It's got some water to it that has that that light watery to it, but builds and Builds and builds. It's not just, it's not Jim Beam White label or Heavenhill uh quality house white label where it's just watery throughout.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

It's not JTS Brown or watery, you know this steps up a staircase.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

It it slowly progresses as you sit on it. It slowly progresses from that friendly, watery, smooth, easy, kind of cold chill to something a little bit very, very, yeah, very spring water.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Spring water uh in a in a in a good refreshing way. Yeah. As it builds in flavor, it also builds in depth uh as you're stepping up like this the different points of of flavor. Um then when it kind of finishes, what it leaves you with, and I guess this is what the the because it's less peanut butter than Jim Beam, but it leaves you with that same kind of mouthfeel. I hate to say mouthfeel. No, no, no, no, but it's like it's like um clawing or or or overpowering, uh maybe not overpowering. What's that encompassing? It encompasses your mouth, the grasping, yeah, it encompasses your mouth the way peanut butter does, where like every bit of your mouth is covered in in that flavor. Uh, and it does have some nutty, uh a lot of nuttiness to it.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

See, I wouldn't I wouldn't say this is peanut butter. This is Reese's cup encompassing. Well, yeah, it has the flavor, but I mean the way that it's grabbing your palate. But even like peanut butter, the way I imagine like grabbing is that dry. It's the beam, it's that dry, like that's dry nuts for sure. No, like I have to like I have to smack my tongue kind of.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

That's even bold peanuts. Like, that's like like this is like peanut peanuts, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 23:37

But this is this is Reese's uh not Reese's, these this would be uh peanut butter MM's where it's kind of it's still smooth, creamy peanut butter.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

The way that that flavor though kind of like coats the entire part of your mouth and lingers there is what I'm getting at, as far as the peanut butter aspect or or I guess nuts in general, but it's less of the peanut butter roasted roasted peanuts and more of like the peanut butter kind of like palate overload kind of a thing, uh as far as the after aftertaste goes, especially okay, because you don't really get that whole lot when you're drinking it, it's the aftertaste, the lingering aftertaste. Yeah, and that's a great thing. We're talking about a bottle that was under $20, probably, you know what I mean? Six years old that's imparting this much flavor. It's just no wonder they quit doing it, or at least they would have had to raise the price, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:33

They for for sure would have had to raise the price.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

When you think about beam, uh, so a beam distiller, a a literal beam family being the distiller for Heaven Hill, and thinking about that and Jim Beam, and there's completely different flavor. This this is what I put the picture. This this presents the best picture of that. Where it's not the extreme nutty that you're talking about, Chris, that that like peanut butter nutty, but it's got those uh similar aspects of like more watery, more creamy kind of feel. You taste knowing the history, you taste and go, okay. I can see I can see and I can appreciate that the the family split. One of the family members went and started distilling for Heaven Hill, but kind of held to his roots without being beam, without without bringing what they had over and mimicking that without being Lafroy and Logovilin, right? Without having this, we have to we have to copycat what you're doing. He was able to create something that still, to your point, Chris, brought you to this beam-esque without being beam.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Without being beam. Without being beam, right? Being different, being set apart, being separate. I I think that one of the things, and you don't get this with every Heaven Hill, but you do get it with a lot of Heaven Hills. Uh, and I think you hit on it, Nick, but it's worth mentioning again, is that that kind of watery, kind of spring water kind of a thing, that is prevalent in the forefront, the beginning of the taste on a lot of Heaven Hill products. Then it morphs into this, that, and the other. But you get it some with certain uh Elijah Craig products, you get it with a lot of the Heaven Hill branded products. Um it's very welcoming. It's very good, it's a refreshing kind of a taste. Yeah, and it's very kind of uh this spring water kind of a thing in the beginning. Um, and it brings you back to this Heaven Hill. Oh, if you've ever been there, you know I'm talking about it for me. I just picture the distillery when I when I when I taste that. Then it morphs into this flavor or that flavor or whatever. But I do think that a lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them do share that that aspect. Uh I think some of them don't. I don't I don't think Pikesville has anything to do with that. But certain ones and a lot of the Heaven Hill branded products do share that. I think Evan Williams especially has some of that. Uh this have the Heaven Hill products have it, some of the Elijah Craig products have it. Some of their like basic line stuff, right? So it's unique to them.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Steve, first time having it, yeah. Bourbon 101.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Like I said, this is bourbon. Like that's that's that is the flavor. The flavor is caramel vanilla, that there's that bourbon flavor that you're looking for to explain what bourbon is. This is the bottle. This is what explains it.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Now, having that thought process in mind and enjoying it, yeah. How disappointed are you that you can't get it?

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah, um super mad because expensive, I mean, for $20, this is a steal. For nine dollars, this is highway robbery.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah, so we we went through uh uh the very first because we had Elijah Craig that was uh fairly inexpensive, then we had Wopsey that was 4550, then we went to Woodford that was uh 30s, right? And then we went to Makers, which is under 30, right? Yeah and then to this. Why why is that price point a steal for you when we're talking bourbon 101? Why is that a steal?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

I think it's because this exemplifies that flavor. Okay. So, like when you talk about makers mark, makers mark would be the closest to it, I think, of the ones that we've had so far.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Closest to price.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Flavor wise, flavor, yeah. It conveniently also flavor, but uh price tag, but uh flavor-wise, I think bourbon, if you're looking to taste bourbon and figure out what the flavor of bourbon is, it should be a high wheat versus a high rye, or like a like a uh the rye tends to overpower. And so if you can keep that out a little bit or keep it hidden away a little bit, majority corn, yeah, portion of wheat, and then the rest barley or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Now we talked like Woodford has a decent amount of rye in it that we didn't really necessarily know about, but that adds a bit of a punch to it that you're not really expecting. Uh, even even such a short-lasting thing that it's okay, yeah, exactly. Whereas this one, this one, uh, I think we don't know the matchup on this, but it probably has a high rye, right? Same, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

It's about 18% rye. Is it really? Well, supposedly it's about 18% rye.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Where did you did you find that online or something?

SPEAKER_02 29:42

So that was the one that I said. Uh sorry, that was the one that was back in 2017. This guy did a review of of this. So maybe, maybe not. I I would be surprised if it was that high. Sorry, uh 78 corn, 10 rye, 12 Marley.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go. Yeah, yeah. It's it has to be a high corn. It's got to be a high corn. Yeah, it has to be a high corn. And and Heavenhill loves their corn.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah, they're the corn forward people.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Flavor profile of what bourbon is, and then after that, you start playing around with all the extra stuff. So is it a high rye, a high weeds, bourbon, whatever? In this case, this is a bourbon that happens to have some Ryan weed in it. It's but it's primarily corn. Corn, which corn is the heavy ingredient, yeah. And they do it well, yeah. They do it well, it really brings out that vanilla, that caramel, those those bourbon-esque flavors that make them really shine through. And so that's why I think it's it's so good. It has a decent finish to it, it doesn't like die right away, like like the Woodford does. Uh, I don't think it's a long finish, but it's not like it doesn't die right away.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

It takes a little sticks with you a little bit, like you know you drank something.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:57

Without it being like like in your nose and exactly sinuses, and yeah, I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

And it's not proofy, like uh the the low proof and stuff, but it's not it. If you get under $20, you kind of expect to have some acetone kind of thing. Kessler's, you're right. So this is leaves and bounds, yeah. So this is because it doesn't have any of that like young-ish acetone-y kind of thing going. Uh, so that's the reason I think like for that price point, it's incredible.

unknown 31:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

But even if you bumped it up to $30, $40, $50.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

This can be easily be a $40-50 bottle.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah. It would it would hold its weight without any issues.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

We've got a unique situation with this bottle that we haven't had on this whole bourbon 101. Seriously. And that is you got this bottle nine to twenty bucks, right? Depending on when you what year you got it, whatever when they're close to going out or are still being around. To the Heaven Hill seven-year bottle in the bond. That's fifty. Sometimes it was closer to 75, now around 50. And people refusing to pay for that bottle. Because in their minds, wasn't worth the price tag because you can get this guy 20 bucks. They should have some gone something in between.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

They should have just kept it and just raised the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

But they're not even the same.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah. If anything, that explains the reason for the discontinuity. That's what I mean. I think that they went is that they wanted to sell the bottom bond.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

But these aren't even the same. I don't I don't know that that's the same. But it's the same name.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

That's the thing. That's the same name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

I think Heaven Hill has so many slots for bottles because they make so much stuff. Yeah. That they have to choose what goes in what slot. And if they don't have a slot for something, it's time to nix it. I really think that that's the way that they work. If you go and do their tour and their tasting and everything else, they very much have set like this is gonna, we're I'm never gonna get rid of this kind of a thing. And and they have hell, you try. I remember trying like 12 things while I was there. It was like one of the most uh, you know, and and they don't you kind of sit in a well, the one I did, you sit in a room and they because there's so much stuff, and they kind of watch a video and you might talk a little bit and you try it, and you get through like 12 things and you're like, damn, that was actually a lot, you know what I mean? It's like a good thing we didn't walk around and do all this crap, you know. But it's because they have they have a lot, they have a very broad update. They have a lot going on, they have a lot going on, they only have so many, so much room for so many things, and I think that they run the numbers, and some guy with a calculator, some do or somewhere is doing the statistics and going, like, you know, this is what we need to do, and there's not room for this. So, and then I think they might have a slot or two open for like, let's try it and see, but they're mostly basing everything on tried and true, like this is doing well. We're making money, we're making a profit. And if something's not making a profit, probably like this, like, hey, you guys are making four dollars a bottle, you know what I mean? Yeah, uh, time to cut that shit out and and and that's it, and and go to something else. And now they have this, hoping that hey, if we sell this and we sell this X amount, right? Even if we sell a third of what we're selling with the green, we're gonna make you know 200% more, whatever it is. So they do the math and they're like, yep, we're coming out ahead. That's all that matters. It's a business, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Right. Regardless of what the mash bill and stuff may be different, the fact that this is a six-year-old bottle and the Heavenhill bottom bond is seven years old and they're selling it for $50 versus this one being six years old and they're selling it for $20. Like, that's a big difference between the two.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

I mean, so the nine dollars is insane, but uh the bottle, the glass bottle itself would cost nine dollars nowadays to pay somebody buying this for nine dollars, even buying this for fifteen dollars, you're almost paying like they're paying you right to take it because like eight this for six years, like they had to make it, then they had to barrel it, then they had to bottle it. Dude, people charge nine dollars for a burger. Well, I was gonna say, hell, people charge like thirty dollars an hour just to bottle this stuff, you know what I mean? Like, like how much this is probably cost nine dollars just to bottle you don't have to do the math on the on the minutes, you know what I mean? Like, this might have cost that much. Like, they were definitely losing out. There's no way they were making money off that. No way.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

So I I agree that I wish they would have raised the price, but I also understand how people would not buy the bottom bond because this one exists, and so I get the point of like we have two things that are too close to each other, and we have to get rid of them.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

And I think the bottle and bond is lower than this. I think if I were to do the lineup, I would do oh, I would put that lower than the what this is. I would do white label at 80. Okay, and then you might have to jump up to the bottle and bond at 100 and then take a step back and do a six-year at 90. You know what I mean? And that's what it is, but then you hit all the spectrums. You got you know, 80, 100, 90.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

The bottle in the bond seven year is the most beam-esque bottle I've ever had from Heaven Hill. It is the most bookers without being bookers. Larceny barrel proof might hit close to that, but it's also weeded, so it's not the same thing, and it kind of has its own flavor to it, right? So, like the Heaven Hill seven year bottle in the bond is the most booker-esque without being booker. This is not Booker-esque, right? And we're talking one year and ten proof points off. You're telling me that one year and ten proof points makes the difference for Booker and Heaven Hill, like Beam and Heaven Hill, like there's gotta be something different with that one. There's gotta be something, and I get that you're like, okay, it has the name Heaven Hill. This one has Heaven Hill too. But when you start looking at it, the Heaven Hill seven year doesn't have quality house, it doesn't have old style, it doesn't have the same things that this does for me to go, those are the same. And that's disappointing because I would love to keep having this because this is bourbon.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Yeah, it's it's uh I I think the only thing we can talk about it is the fact that it's a shame because it is it's a good bottle, it's a great bottle for the price. I I think this would be a good bottle for like three times what it was going for. Um I think just getting rid of it altogether sucks.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Do you think they'll bring it back for a bit more price tag?

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Nope. Nope. I think Heaven Hill will not do it. I think Heaven Hill will only come out with new stuff at this point, and they'll get rid of old things. I don't think that they're bringing anything back, they're expanding what they already have. Yeah, so like they're not gonna bring anything back.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

You've I've noticed lately a lot of Willow Jane, Widow Jane stuff, and they've they they had that thing, but then they also have expanded it. So now there's three or four different versions of Widow Jane. Unfortunately, they look at the numbers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

And if you were to pull the numbers, I don't think that that would exactly jive with bourbon drinkers because people that are buying this stuff and the people that are drinking this stuff are not exactly the same, it's close, but there will be a lot more people that will buy Widow Jane's stuff than people that in the bourbon community that will drink it. You know what I mean? And I just think that that's what it is. You gotta take into account every little old lady that goes in there to buy the bourbon for their grandson that buys Widow Jane, and and and every wife that goes in there that knows her husband's into bourbon, but buys Widow Jane. And and and the guy that goes in there to impress his friends before they come over, buys Widow Jane, along with the bourbon drinkers that actually think Widow Jane's good. You know what I mean? So you got to mix all that together.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Yeah, this bottle, it's they're gonna run the numbers. They could do a marketing re-up. Like this bottle looks like a cheap bottle. So you'd have to do a marketing re-up. I would hate it on it. It's what they did with bakers. I hate it.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Yeah, I hate it. Did not need to change bakers, it was fine the way it was.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

But this is old school. This this feels very old. This is very old school. This is grandpa's bottle. I love it. Yeah, like that's what that's the look of it. How do you think it goes with the pipe? Like, oh, I really like this pipe. Do you like Hyde Park? Yeah, I'm a huge fan. This is Peterson's Hyde Park, and I'm a massive fan of it. Are you? Yeah, yeah. I will for sure be buying this tobacco for my really enjoy it. What do you like about it? It has a sweet uh like this. Is also rum finished, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that yeah, so it has that sweetness to it that I don't think the last one we did was the beast, and it it was also rum finished, but it it was that heavy pareek that I think really took it over. And the rum may have combed it a touch, but it was still like it was a pariek. This has a lot more finish than you this subtle, but it's a very nice finish to it with that, and I also think I'm more of an English fan than a Parique fan, yeah. Oh, yeah, and so for sure that's also plays a part in it.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Well, it's good quality leaf, too, which makes the English a little bit more elevated. It's a really nice room note, too. It does have it a good room note, yeah. It's kind of an elegant tobacco, it is for for what it you know, for what it is. I feel like this is more of a date-night tobacco or steak and lobster tobacco, uh martini tobacco kind of a thing. But it goes well with this Heaven Hill, which is funny because you're talking talking about a high-end tobacco and a very cheap urban.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

They kind of balance each other out really nicely. So, yeah, I'm a big fan of the side park, also. Um, but yeah, I think it's going really well with the Heaven Hill because it is kind of evening itself out a little and almost adding a finish a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

It is, it is uh it's adding, I think it's picking up what the Heaven Hill is lacking, and lacking it because it's a nine dollar bottle. When you say lacking in a bad way, or like that's what I mean. I you can't really that's like saying, like, you know, uh a two-year-old is lacking in his potty training skills. Well, no, crud.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Yeah, it's it's last it's lacking in the fact that it is a basic bottle. So it is basic. It is it is it is exactly what it's meant to be. It is meant to be it's the basic bourbon. There's few things that measure up this high for what it's meant to be. It's a great place to start, though. Like in terms of a starting bottle, like if you're gonna start in whiskey, you're probably gonna start in a well bottle. This is a well bottle that shouldn't be. Yeah, like this will be the highest end well bottle out there. Yeah, this is a quality bottle that happens to be in the well, and so it it it because of that, it makes for a fantastic first bourbon.

unknown 42:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

And it goes well with the top track.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

When we talk about bourbon 101, there is no, in my opinion, maybe I'm the only one. There is no like this is the set-in-stone bourbon when it comes to bourbon 101, right? So uh out of the several that we've had, Elijah Craig, we've had the the uh Wiggle, we've had uh Makers Woodford, we've had this. What has been your like one that you would say, in my opinion, this has to be the one you go after?

SPEAKER_03 42:55

I think it's easy, it's makers mark, only because not only about the way it tastes, but it's the availability. You can't get this green. Uh, I mean, we're not talking about something it's almost not fair because it's a 101, but can't get it anymore. So would you say the qual the the white label is you could get if you could get the green, I'd say get the green. Would you say the white label's worth trying to go? You have to try the white label. Okay, you're gonna have to do another episode on the white label. I think the white label's great. Uh, I I think it's just uh you're talking double the age, double the maturity.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

For me, what what this has really reminded me of is it brings us back to our roots. It brings us back to what bourbon really is, and it brings us back to that basics, which is kind of nice. Everything that we love about bourbon is built on top of this. So this is our basic building block, and then on top of this, we have finishings, we have uh different whatever it may be. So, like the wiggle, I think, is is almost a it's it's the 102. It's it's not a 200, yeah, but it's like a 102 or 103. 202. Yeah. Because it's like it's a little bit, a little bit higher. Dude, it's yeah, but algebra.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Because of what you got, pre-algebra, uh it's algebra two.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right so like it's just a little bit above that, but like that's your very clear next step because it's not a finishing, it's not something that's like super heavy rye that's spicy, it's something that is just this, but a little bit better, or a little different, yeah. A little bit different. I think wiggle for sure is is more than 101. Yeah, yeah. It's just a little bit different. Whereas uh I would agree that maker's mark is of the ones that we had is the most exemplified of what is bourbon that is also available. Yeah, so in terms of a first time you're new to bourbon, this is what you have to try. Maker's mark is is there. Elijah Craig and Woodford are both also there, but take a little bit more. These taste a lot more like alcohol. This is a little bit more, you got people around, you got a little bit, you know, a little bit more spice and stuff in there that could make you think that it's more proofy or or stronger than it actually is, could turn you off. Yeah, yeah, it could turn you off. So maker's mark would be my one of the ones that we've had here, and then Heaven Hill kind of sucks. Heaven Hill would be my answer, but it's not available. So because of that, I can't put that in number one or like be the one that everyone should try. But if you can find a Heaven Hill green label for like under $60, I'd say get it, but you're not gonna spend $60 as a first time new into bourbon. Like you have to find something what a great first bottle.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

If you went to the store and got that for nine, it would ruin you for nine bucks. Yeah, then you try something like Buster Scrubs for $40. You're like, what's this shit? What is this? This is disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Yeah, for $40. Yeah, yeah. So Heaven Hill and Makersmark, I think, are the most exemplary of a basic bourbon. And then it goes to Woodford and uh and Elijah, and then Wiggle is just one step above.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

Yeah, I really do think Wiggle is in the uh accelerated program.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah, I'm gonna challenge your ideas, and this may be because I'm all for the craft world. Let's think back. We were not existing during this time period, but let's think back to when bourbon first started. They used what they had uh slash used what people would enjoy. So we now jumping forward years from that have an idea already in our heads that this is what bourbon should be. If Wiggle Whiskey is working with what they have, working within the parameters of bourbon, how is what they put out any different than what we first started out with way back when, before we built this idea up in our heads that it has to be this.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

So the difference is that I can't go to the store and buy Wiggle.

unknown 47:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Okay, so is it so it's availability? It's availability. Okay, so it's not the channel, so it's not that it's 2.0, it's just that we I can't get it.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Oh, I can't get it. And the thing is, I can get makers mark, okay, which is why makers mark changes everywhere because everyone can get it. So I can't talk, I can talk to somebody in Wisconsin, I can talk to somebody in California or in New York or in Florida and say, hey, what does bourbon taste like? And we can all drink a maker's mark and have the same idea.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

So it's it's an availability issue if if so that's the reason that is I were to take if me, you and Steve transported in time 300 years ago, boom, done. We're there, and we spend 15 years in whatever 1700, whatever the hell it was. And one day I came up to you and Steve and said, Hey guys, it's been a shit show. I have a surprise. Six years ago, I made some bourbon, corn, 51% corn, it's got some other stuff in it. Here you go. You guys tried that, it wouldn't matter what it tastes like. You'd be like, That's some bourbon. Yeah, that's bourbon. That's the first one you try. It's been 15 years I've had anything close to this. There's no bourbon doesn't exist yet, right? We've been drinking freaking uh weird wine from the French, right? Like whatever it is. And I were to pour you a bourbon of whether it's Wiggle or whether it's makers or what if it had 51% corn, some weed and some barley or rise and barley or whatever the hell, you'd be like, that's some damn bourbon. You know what I mean? Like then that's so you're talking about bourbon 101, like what Steve is saying is availability too. You can't really kind of like pick, so you know what I mean. Like as far as that goes, like because we're talking about a subgenre of a subgenre of a subgenre. We're really getting down to like the very basic elements of what it is. I think what makes Wiggle not one of these at this point is because we have so many of these, we have so few wiggles, right? So wiggle has become like what you're saying, Nick, was like Wiggle was probably the rough version of bourbon back in the day. But now Wiggle has become the odd man because we have these very basic. So it's kind of like if I if that might made you a hamburger back a hundred years ago, a hamburger back a hundred years ago would taste like a hamburger. But if I you were to go to get a hamburger at nine out of ten places now, they would all kind of taste similar to like especially fast food, they'd all taste very similar to McDonald's. And if I were to make you like a hamburger, like a real hamburger, right? This is different. This is something different. So like the real hamburger sticks out.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

The problem is global warming.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

I was really hoping that you would say the problem is global warming.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

That's what it's all in my hands. It's just that if if this was 40 years ago and I lived in Pittsburgh, then Wiggle would be bourbon.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

So it's become so refined that now, like the unrefined thing or unrefined thing is the odd man out.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

So let me ask you this it's not the availability that's the issue, it is the fact that it's different and not available that causes you to say, if we're talking to a generalized population of people across the globe, across the US, saying, What is, you know, what is my bourbon 101? It can't be wiggle, not because wiggle is bad or because wiggle is something uh else, it's because I can't get wiggle everywhere else, and wiggle is slightly different from every other general population bourbon that I can get.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

So many people have tried the mainstream stuff that the wiggle would taste different and different in a way that they wouldn't have cons construed it with like normal bourbon. Yeah, and that's what I think wiggle is probably the most like normal bourbon here, yeah. But like the fact that we've gotten to this point where everything tastes kind of the same. We've we've gone to this point, it's 2025, you know what I mean? Like that we've refined things so much that like natural products taste weird.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Interesting. So like organic is weird, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

Like cage-free brown eggs are weird. Cage-free brown eggs would taste weird from store-bought eggs, yeah, is weird, right? And that's strange. Or people are outlawing whole milk, like real raw milk, which I think is gross too. But like raw milk is milk, and the fact that they're outlawing it, it's like we you don't realize we for hundreds of hundreds of years. That's what we had like hundreds and hundreds of years, we drank raw milk, and just in the last like 40 years, we've started like doing a lot of shit to it. And you're like, you'll die. You'll die if you drink raw milk. I don't drink raw milk because I think it's gross, but like for literally since the beginning of time, like in Jesus' time, they were squeezing a cow's udder and drinking that shit.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Like it was goat, but yeah, yeah. But you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 52:19

Like they were drinking raw milk, like they were like, you'll die. Uh I think that's the funniest thing. Like, they're like, you're gonna die if you drink this. We drank it for hundreds of years. We've been drinking pasteurized, filtered, heated up milk for like 40.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Yeah, you're not gonna die. Like when you're talking about a basic, you have to have something that everyone can try.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Like a baseline.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Basic is baseline.

SPEAKER_03 52:45

Now basic has become McDonald's. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah. So because that maker's market is McDonald's, it is the wiggle. And wiggle is like yeah, that's the special chick-fil-a. That's the burger joint.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Wiggle would be like, yeah, the burger joint of your town. Like a local, like I blended this myself and formed it into a patty and grilled that, grilled that thing for you.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

It'll be the best burger you ever had. It's a damn good burger.

SPEAKER_03 53:08

I can't find you can't say that's it's not a standard.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

It's the same reason why if if globalization wasn't a thing, we would think watershed was bourbon.

unknown 53:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

And wiggle, and the people in Pittsburgh would think wiggle was bourbon.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

We would have no way to talk to people in Pittsburgh, so we would not know the difference.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Those two being very different, it wouldn't matter. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

Well, and that's a good point because food to the Chinese is just food, it's not Chinese food. For to us, it's Chinese food, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 53:38

And then we have a level from that that's not even Chinese.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

There was a time, there was a time in the world's history where we didn't eat anything but food. We never thought about I'm gonna eat Italian, yeah, I'm gonna eat this. I'm gonna we didn't have the luxury. I eat food. Yeah, I eat food, so I drink whiskey, I drink water. I you know what I mean. There was no like, like I I bet there was a time where gin, vodka, whiskey, like it was all the same. Like if it was oh hella to the Indians, the natives, it was fire water. Like, this is not water, right? But it's like water, but it tastes like fire. This is fire water. That's it. They weren't like this tastes like bourbon, it's fire water, you know what I mean? Yeah, so but I think wiggles become less less of the basics at this point.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

And it's a shame with that with wiggle in a good one. I think it's a good thing, or watershed or any craft distillery, it's become its own genre, it's that it's its own genre, and also I have to go there to get it, yeah. And so, like because of that, I have to already like bourbon to say I'm gonna go to a distillery in Pittsburgh and try it. So it can't be a 101 because I have to seek it out, right?

SPEAKER_03 54:53

I think uh I agree with that. I think 101 would be if you were to go to a random liquor store, a small, tiny little liquor store in anywhere in the country at an airport, what they have on the shelf is 101. Yeah, because they're gonna have what wild turkey, they're gonna have uh Johnny Walker Blue. So it doesn't even matter the price, these are 101s. Yeah, they're out of the five bottles that are on any shelf in America collectively, those are 101s. Wiggle, is he gonna be on there? No, let's not let's change this up, okay?

SPEAKER_02 55:29

We have we are connected through Facebook, we're connected through phones, we're connected through Instagram, whatever. We are so connected as a population, right? To where Steve, you live in Pennsylvania. I can send you text and say, Hey, have you heard of this? King, get me a bottle.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

The key there is, have you heard of this? Have you heard of this? That's not 101. That's the thing. 101 everybody's heard of. That means I have to be like, hey, I would like to try a bourbon. And you have a bourbon there. I have to already know I would like to try a different bourbon.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Bourbon 101 isn't have you tried this or have you already picked this up. We have different definitions of 101.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

It's already because 101 for me is what is bourbon. 101 for you guys is specific bourbons, not one.

SPEAKER_03 56:19

Anything any 101 bourbon 101 is something anybody can try at any time, anywhere, and it is a quintessential starting point.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

I can talk to others about what bourbon is.

SPEAKER_03 56:30

If we play baseball in China, it is still baseball. If we play baseball in America, it is still baseball. If we play baseball in Italy, it is still baseball.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

Well, how do you explain football versus football?

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Well, whatever. You know what I mean? But like, and I think that there are bottles of makers mark and wild turkey in China, and there's bottles of makersmark and wild turkey in Italy. So if you're talking uh bourbon 101, you could go to Italy and be like, have you tried wild turkey yet? Yes, yes, you have. You have tried bourbon, that is bourbon. You get what I'm saying? So I think it's a part of it is like the the baseline of this can be had anywhere, like what Steve is saying. Also, the flavors of this is 51% corn. This is not messing around. Well, and honestly, the higher corn you go, the more bourbon it tastes like, I think. So this is this is bourbon because this is what it tastes like. And there's so many bottles that are very close to the same taste profile. They're just little tweaks here and there, they're everywhere. You can get them in the in Russia, China, America, like bourbon that can be had outside of where bourbon is made makes it 101, right? Because this is the most basic aspect of what that is.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

And after you've had those, then you can improve. It's a launch pad, and that's where you get into the wiggles and stuff. Like this is actually this is better. Like wiggle is better, but you have to have a starting point, and your starting point is generally not as good.

SPEAKER_03 57:59

Wiggle is Whole Foods. Yeah, and Kroger is the basic one and stuff to put it in a parent perspective.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

It's your child learning how to crawl. Bourbon 202 is learning how to walk. Yes, therm plus is learning how to run, learning how to do these things. It's a it's a continual growth, but you have to learn how to walk before you can learn how to do it.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Yeah, you go straight to a wiggle, you might be kind of I think you might be out in the ether a little bit, yeah. Free-floating a lot, or until you figure out your bearings. Yeah, I just think you can do it, it has been done. I think you struggle with it. I think most people start off with some basic stuff and work their way up. We did it, I did it, I 100% did it. So I I think that that's you you can't go straight from non-bourbon to burp bookers, you know what I mean? You can't do it and survive if you do, like more power to you. You'll never, I don't think you'll ever appreciate the makers marks in the heaven hills of the world. So that's where I'm at with it. That's what I think. We all agree.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

That figured out. I don't, I don't, I don't think it so I don't uh it's not that I don't agree or agree. I the questions of this is trying to figure out so we did the series of 101. What is 101?

SPEAKER_03 59:14

Now what is one?

SPEAKER_02 59:16

What is 101? Like if you talk to a uh newbie, they go, Holy crap, Woodford is my 101. Like that that's my 104. If you talk to someone that's already you talk to members of the club four years in, they're like, Wake old whiskey is my one-on-one. Like then, but it's four years into the club thing. That's no longer a 101. In their minds, they're going, that should be the 101 because that's where I'm at. That's my new baseline.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

The baseline for whiskey, the baseline for bourbon continually changes over time. Right, you no longer care about what Freud said. Right.

SPEAKER_04 59:54

So exactly. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 59:56

It's not the same thing. I don't think 101 changes. I don't think 101. I think you learned how to read with A B C. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:05

You learn how to do more baseline.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

And you learn math. So the building blocks of math are numbers, the building blocks of reading are letters, the building blocks of bourbon are these bottles. As you get older, you appreciate stories made up of letters and words that were the building blocks. I think wiggle is not letters, it's words. You know what I mean? It's the next step. I don't think that it's I don't think you can call Wiggle 101 because it's not the most basic form of what and it can't be had everywhere. I think 101, and it doesn't really matter price because I think Johnny Walker can be a 101. I think Johnny Walker can blue label can be a 101. But what I'm saying is it should be available to people pretty much everywhere. It can be had by going to the store and not looking for it, and it can be flavor-wise the the starting point. It shouldn't be super aggressive and it shouldn't be super uh uh, I mean, like to where you don't want to ever try it. Yeah, it's got to be interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

It's the same reason, like for us or for really for anyone, a 101 doesn't mean the cheapest. No, like it doesn't mean that it means the standard. It means the standard, then it's uh then it's acetone, you know. It's uh then you're you're just flavor, it's just aged vodka. We don't want that. So it has to have yeah, so like it has to have the pieces that make it a bourbon, but it has to be the most basic version of what it is anyone can have, and and can have everywhere and can discuss.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Can everybody have a Chicago dog? No, but everybody can have a hot dog, yeah. You know what I mean? That's you this the Chicago dog is not 101 out of the hot dog world, but it is a hot dog, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:57

To your point, you said something that I completely agree, and this this changes the idea. Do you agree with this is 101? You said that someone's 101 might be Johnny Walker. It's the idea that everyone's 101, their baseline is always going to be different.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:11

Well, I don't think every somebody's i'm I just mean like it can be for a lot of people, like it's a scotch.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Yes, so what I'm saying is uh I did not like whiskey, I did not like beer, I loved scotch, so my baseline was scotch. This is fantastic. Yeah, that's a whole nother aspect. That's the thing. So what I'm saying is everyone's Johnny Walker can be had the world over. Everyone's baseline. Starter whiskey, their 101 of whiskey changes. So if my 101 of starter whiskey, just whiskey in general, bourbon is whiskey, right? All bourbon is whiskey, not all whiskey is bourbon. So if we go with the idea that bourbon is still whiskey, my 101 was a scotch, it was Johnny Walker.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:51

See, I don't think a whiskey 101. I don't think so, because whiskey is too broad. Yeah, whiskey is too many things. I agree. Scotch and bourbon are both whiskey. You cannot like both not that you cannot like both, but most people do not have like both at the start. You can have Chinese food 101, you can have uh Korean food 101, you can't absolutely have a Scotch 101, which Johnny Walker is for sure a player in that world because that's a blended scotch, it's a piece of everything. And Scotch gets really weird because you can't because you can't have a 101 with LaFroy in it, but LaFroy is for sure a 101 of Isla Scotch. So now we're getting real niche. So bourbon is broad, but not so broad that you can include scotch, even though they're both a whiskey, right? Bourbon is a category, and you have to stay within those bounds of bourbon to be a bourbon 101. A whiskey 101 can include Johnny Walker Blue, a bourbon 101 cannot. So that's the that's the thing. You're you're you're going too wide.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Maybe what I'm hoping for is uh the part of me agrees with you guys, but part of me, a large part of me hopes that one day this could be the 101. Because I I know what you can get to, and I'm like, why can't we start out with what you can get to?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

And a for an unfortunate thing about 101 is 101 is going to just automatically exclude craft because two plus two equals four, and that's the basic times table. As you get up to multiplication and vision, you have to like bourbon before you can get into craft, and how you get to liking bourbon is going to a liquor store and buying something, and so you have to start there. Now, after you do that, you can quickly gain the ranks and jump up and get into the craft world. And I think we can we could say a craft 101 would include something like a wiggle, right? But that means you've already passed the bourbon class because now you're in the craft 101, and so you're no longer in anatomy 101, you're in brain 101. And so you're you're already a step above, it's a different class.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

But I I mean might have to end with that because I don't know how else to like I hope for this, but I understand what you guys are saying, and I think everyone's gonna be on the same boat, like depending on where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

What it is is that you want it to be really, really good, which is why it's no longer a 101. Because 101 is not really, really good, right? That's a fair point. It's not that it's it's good, but it's not really, really, really good. Yeah, yeah. 101 is your baseline, yeah. You grow from there and you get better from there. Maker's Market is not my go-to anymore because I've grown from there. And now I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:49

You might want to teach people like Hotel California on the piano first, but you got to start with chopsticks. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:55

Yeah. All right, fair point. With that, see you next time. Thank you for listening to the podcast. If you want more great content and other perks, be sure to support the show by clicking the link in the show notes. We can be reached on our website, whiskeychaserspod.com, with any ideas for the show. Thanks again.