Bourbon 101!

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Welcome to the Whiskey Chasers, where we talk about our passion for whiskey and its history, either amongst ourselves or while interviewing distilleries. All while enjoying a glass. I'm Steve. I'm Nick. And I'm Chris. Please enjoy responsibly while enjoying this week's episode of The Whiskey Chasers.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Just good old Elijah Craig. This is just a small batch. Okay, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

This is like Elijah Craig 101.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

That would make sense.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

This is like Jim Beam White.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Jim Beam White label, yeah. This is like the founder of bourbon. The basics. Back to the basics.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Back to the basics. 101.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Though it's much higher proof than what I thought it would be. I don't know why I had it in my mind. 1994. Okay. I had it in my hand that it was going to be like 80.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, it's because a lot of basic bourbon's. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

So I had it in my mind like, oh, this is going to be 80 proof. Nothing that Heaven Hill does is.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

It's not as basic as we thought. Yeah. Yeah. Like if it was super basic, it would be 80 proof.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

And called whiskey. There you go. Just whiskey. Whiskey. Yeah. It's just the normal basic stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

So I would say most people that get into whiskey probably in the US start with bourbon. Is that fair? Yeah. Like probably the first bottle you try is probably going to be a bourbon.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Probably going to be a bourbon. So I would either say that or no matter what bottle they pick up, they're going to assume and associate bourbon. Like even if they pick up like a whiskey, they're going to be like, ooh, it's a bourbon.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I was going to say in America, I think what you get a lot of is it's Jack Daniels. And then they also take Jack Daniels and assume that, yeah, I just had a bourbon.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Which technically it is. It meets all the requirements. It's also not. Right. It's a requirements. Plus, it's it's a Tennessee style of doing it.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Yes. They're they're more um happy with you know it being a Tennessee whiskey than it being a bourbon.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

I feel like we've talked about this quite a bit. Jack Daniels is probably the only Tennessee whiskey that really harps on the fact that they're Tennessee whiskey. Very proud of it. They're very proud of it. Very proud of it. Everyone else is like, it's bourbon. It's Tennessee bourbon. Like, we're good with it.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

I think that's the thing, is I think Kentucky is too known for bourbon, and Tennessee wants Jack Daniels, wants Tennessee to be its own thing. So it's Tennessee whiskey, not bourbon.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

I just feel like it's one of the American staple. Like you have McDonald's, Jack Daniels, Marlborough cigarettes. You know what I mean? Like these are American things that uh, you know, Smith and Wesson, like these are American. If you weren't from America, you'd be like, oh yeah, that's American.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

You know what uh what bourbon comes, what brand comes to mind when you think of an old fashioned?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, you know how I like my old fashions. I like a makers.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Because a makers for you to make's for me, so that's what I was thinking. Like, if I'm thinking cocktail, because a large majority of should be a ride. It should be a ride.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

I like a makers Manhattan, dude. That's just how I've always been.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

If I'm thinking like 21-year-olds like just able to drink going out, they're probably just getting cocktails at that point. So it's like, I'll just have an old fashioned, you know? And if I'm thinking like if I want old fashions, yeah, this is what I'm gonna put in it.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

But that's a pretty that's a classy college kid. That's normally a Jack and Coke.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

And I feel like a lot of times if you don't really know what you're doing, but you want to be kind of classy and you're ordering a Manhattan, they'll give you like an option of like two different bourbons, and the person will go with whatever is familiar. So if they say makers or something else, they're gonna go with the makers because it's I remember I used to do it with vodka, the vodka drinks, you know what I mean? If I didn't know like which vodka was which, you know, if I heard, you know, Stoli or Smearnoff, yeah, give me that, or kettle one, I'm like, yeah, I'll give you that. Now I'm like, I hate kettle one. Kettle one sucks, you know what I mean? Stoli's not bad. Smearnoff is uh, you know what I mean? But like, give me Tito's or give me uh yeah, Stoly's not bad. Beef eater for gin, like same thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Thinking of cocktails in Manhattan's, one of the best Manhattans I've ever had was done with Angels Envy. Like that was one of the best Manhattan.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Was it Angel's Envy just regular?

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Just regular. So it wasn't a true Manhattan in that sense. However, it played really well because of the port wine finish. It played very well in Man in Manhattan. I can see that being really good.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, I could see that. Actually, I want to I want to have a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

I don't want to try that, don't you? Okay, I don't want to have one of those. Yeah, I don't have Angel's Envy at home. I might go buy me a bottle just just so I can make me a Manhattan.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Probably one of the best ones. And then I had uh old fashioned done with Buffalo Trace. Yeah, that was good.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

See, have you ever had an old fashioned done with Canadian whiskey? No, it's good, yeah, it's good, yeah, it's very good because it's sweeter, you know, and you're an old and an old-fashioned is a sweet drink, you know what I mean? If they're done right, it's like your sugar. Yeah, it is. You muddle it all uh up, you know what I mean? It's just uh I think Canadian whiskey makes a great old fashioned, but I feel like some people listening to that might be like, what do you do?

SPEAKER_03 5:15

What do you guys uh make your old fashions? Do you use a simple syrup or do you use a sugar cube or sugar cube? Sugar cube?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Yeah, well, so if I'm if I don't have any sugar cubes around and it's like people are just wanting it, like it's over people are over for cocktails, then I'll just do simple syrup because it's easy to do.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

You know what I'll do instead of simple syrup because I never have it. If I don't have sugar cubes, I use maple syrup. And it actually works really well. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

I use uh Demerara sugar cubes. Ooh, and so that's that at home, just just for main just for metal factors.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Just muddle that crap up and yeah, that's a way to do it. I mean, you pull out a decanter of sugar cubes and you some tongs and you tong it into the glass and you're muddling that. That's a whole nother that is a whole nother level.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Now, did you guys grow up with your parents or grandparents using sugar cubes in their coffee versus like and I would eat it? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Yeah, oh absolutely. No, I was just packets, face fake packets, usually. Oh no, we had the cubes.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah, we had the cubes, and I was like black beauty to those things, like eating it like a horse, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I could see you doing that.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

You like crunchy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

I like crunchy sweet, yeah, yeah. That's all but you would eat six or seven of those things, and it's like that's just pure freaking sugar.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Right, literally, literally just formed into a cube. Yeah, and uh I would say bourbon is that is your sweet drink. Like generally, when people talk about it, the flavors that they taste are vanilla and caramel and oak, whatever that is. Whatever that is, sucking on wood, exactly right, and so that and it is kind of a sweeter, a sweeter drink to begin with, and so yeah, bourbon is quintessentially American. We made it very American now. It's the law that it is American, nobody else is allowed to make it, yeah. It's as American as country fried ginger, yeah. But yeah, so bourbon, it's made with at least 51% corn in the mash bill. Asian char new oak barrels made in the United States, distilled a maximum of 160 proof, 180, barreled at a maximum of 125 proof, bottled at a minimum of 80 proof, and a max of 150. So you can't get above 150 proof with bourbon. So there we are for bottling for bot for bottling, yes, yeah, yeah. And so which I don't what's the hottest bourbon you probably had? I mean, I've I think we've had some Elijah Craig that was like 120 in the 20s. We've had stuff in the 130s, maybe in the 130s.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

We've talked about this too. There's a limit though, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:01

150. 150 is the limit, but so the big trend lately, and I feel like Chris and I love to predict trends. Yeah, a while ago, we predicted that the barrel proof and high-proof stuff was gonna go crazy. People are gonna go after it, that's what they're gonna seek after it, that's what they wanted. It's gotten to the point where people are now calling anything above 140. 140 and above, so 140 to 150 is hazmat, is what they're starting to call those. Yeah, they're calling them hazmat bottles because they're very rare, like few and far between go really above 130. I think Chris and I have a jack rye, the single barrel barrel-proof rye that is 139, maybe. Okay, and that one's really easy to drink for 139.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Well, and we've had uh, I know I've had Elijah Craig barrel-proof, and I want to say like 142. I had that. Um, because that's been up there. And then George, I'm trying to think what George T. Stag usually comes in at.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

I mean, that's I remember we went to an event with uh Elijah Craig, and there was a bottle there that I I thought it crossed over the 140, but I wasn't sure. It was it was either that or a really high 130.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I've got one sitting out there, it's 142.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Yeah. And who's it by a stag?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

George George T.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Stag, yeah. Yeah. Straight bourbon, if you've ever heard that, is the same thing, uh, except it's at least two years old, and it must have an age statement if it's under four years. So that's kind of the limit there. There is no age statement requirement or age requirement around bourbon. And so straight bourbon has to be at least two years, but regular bourbon doesn't have a requirement.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

No, it can be uh, as we learned with um the distillery that shall not be named. Uh that it can be even like so many hours. Right. And then what would they do? Some sort of weird pressurized.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Yeah, they like pressurize it or something, push it into the wood. Yeah. Doing four years worth of aging in 22 hours. Yeah. The guy that's considered like the founder of Bourbon, though, is Elijah Craig. He's kind of the the main guy. He really isn't, but he's he's kind of known as that, the the father of bourbon. You said he's not really not really. I think just in name. Just really just in name. So there's a lot of uh a lot of mythology around Elijah Craig and and its founding and how he came up with his stuff. Elijah Craig was born in 1743. He was a real guy, he was a Baptist preacher, he brought his congregation of 600 people to what would become Bourbon County, Kentucky. He started a school there, he donated the land, and uh Georgetown University is on that land now. So Georgetown University is where Elijah Craig came to Kentucky there.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Do they have a distillery or distillation?

SPEAKER_03 11:13

They don't, they ought to at least have a statue or something.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah. If he's the father of bourbon, they need to have like a distilling.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

I'm sure, I mean, bourbon county does. Uh, I don't know if the university does. Maybe they'd like to keep their distance. I don't know. But he was also a heck of a businessman. He started like a whole bunch of stuff. The first paper mill, a fulling mill, which is a place that makes clothes, a rope and hemp mill, uh, as well as the first lumber mill and grace mill in Georgetown. So he basically made everything that ends with mill. That was his that was his goal. He was going for all the mills. All the mill. Monopolizing the mills. Millopoly.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Here he had one mill. He's like, what else can I do with this?

unknown 11:57

Paper?

SPEAKER_03 11:58

It's better than one. More than one. I wonder if the lumber mill was first before the paper mill, because at least then you would saw it down and have the sawdust to make the paper.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Or did he create the lumber mill off of the paper mill because he was tired of having trying to buy all the sawdust? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

In 1789, that is the year that he opened his distillery. Ladger created charred the barrels, creating the first bourbon whiskey. Different stories on how he came up with this idea of charring barrels. According to the myth, he's like the first guy to do it. He charred the barrels. This is this revolutionary thing. Could have been there was a barn fire, which charred the barrels. Uh, he saved a few of them, filled them, and sent them down the river to New Orleans, being very fruit frugal with his money. In the bourbon area.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Right. Right. Bourbon Street. It's like this wood caught on fire, but we're we can salvage it. Let's continue that.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

This is fine. This is it's just a little little black. It's alright. That's fine. Yeah. So because of the charring, though, it added this color to the to the liquor. So the uh people in New Orleans called it the red liquor from bourbon county.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Not brown liquor?

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Not brown liquor, red. Red liquor. Which it uh it is red-ish. It's very rubyish. Like it's very ruby-ish, yeah. And so I can see red. I think it's more appealing than brown.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Now, when you say he sent the barrels down down the river, yeah. Down the river, were they filled or empty barrels they sent. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Filled. So when they got there, they now had this color and had been aging.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Which I have a hard, hard, hard time believing this story because how do the inside of the barrels get so charred and the outside not? Exactly. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Also, how long does it take to get down to New Orleans?

SPEAKER_03 13:46

Uh, I wouldn't like probably just a few months, if if even that long. I don't know. I really don't know, but it I couldn't imagine it's like super long.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Again, if they were burned up in a fire, right? I I have a hard time believing that water's gonna remain in the barrel.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

They float the barrels down.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

They used to float them down.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

They just send them down river?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Well, no, they would tie them together. You know, you don't know this. They would tie they would tie them together, you know this. Yep. Uh, and they would float them down. Like, like, why put them on a boat when they float? You know, so they would tie them to to something, and then there would be there would be a boat that would guide them, but they would float them down.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

So that's my next question. And this whole myth, would that work? Because wouldn't the water that's what I'm saying? Wouldn't the water seep into the boat?

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Freaking literally, and so the bourbon would seep out. Right now, the other myth uh you're about to get to in a minute, yeah, is the fish.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Yep, you tell it, you tell it, Steve. Yeah, so the other version of this is is going the other direction. So down in New Orleans, they catch fish and send it upriver, and then the barrels now they're gonna send back with bourbon. Well, you can't do that. To save a book, they're gonna reuse a barrel. They're gonna reuse the barrels, but you can't do that. The inside of those barrels smell like fish. Now you're gonna have fishy bourbon.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

We have fish oil, come on. Right, you can have that.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Yeah, so he decided to shove a bunch of hay in there, light it on fire, and char the inside, and that would remove the fish scent and fish flavor, and then send it back after that. That's a bit more of a believable.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

A lot more plausible, a lot more plausible, especially when you're like maybe this would impart some flavor that could be good.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Right, exactly. So history can at least say around that time period is when they started charring barrels.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Yeah, I you you would think with the story, but no.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Okay, I was about to ask that because I have a hard time. I've I've watched these companies char the barrels, right? Yeah, and you talk about well, we just put a bunch of hay in and we lit on fire.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Doesn't really work the way it's it does today. Charring barrels has been a common practice in Europe long before this time. I mean, they were doing it with scotch, right? Yeah, they were already doing it with scotch, and they were already using that as a way to reuse barrels anyway. So, like the purpose is there, the time, the time they're gonna be. I think they were out of scotch. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

It's a borrowed and then they wanted to make it their own American thing, you know. So they made up this story about fish and fires.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Yeah, it's also very important to remember that the Elijah Craig brand came about in the 80s. 1980s, 1980s. Branding of Elijah Craig showed up in the 80s. That I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

So do we know what mash bill Elijah Craig had before the branding?

SPEAKER_03 16:38

We do know that it has nothing to do with what's in this bile. I wondered. Okay, all right. Uh Elijah Craig was a distiller in that area. He was known, he was uh known at the time. Whatever he did then has nothing to do with what's in this bile today. They found the name and decided this would be a good person to pick. And used it. And he tried to make himself like the big guy with bourbon and so this isn't like ancestors of him or anything either. It's just some bourbon person needed a name, they decided to pay homage to early distillers, and this this name was was a good one to use. He was also a preacher. We talked about that. Yep, yep. A Baptist preacher in that area.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Did he have any kind of farm like agricultural stuff?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

I mean, I'm sure he did, but he did all those other things too. He's he was starting all those businesses and everything. So I don't think he was real big into farming. He started a school and was a preacher.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Did he start the school after he became a preacher?

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Preacher first, moved to the area, started a school. That's when he sold the land that became Georgetown.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Gotcha. Okay. The reason I ask about the the agriculture is because it makes sense to start a distillery off of the agriculture because you're trying to save the grain and figure out a way to do that back then. Right. This made sense. And it would also make sense that if that's how you got started, this mash bill would not be that mash bill. That would be more out of conserving and and using up utilizing everything that you have versus this.

unknown 18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

No, as far as I can tell, he didn't do any kind of farming. I think most people did some form of farming, but nothing nothing major. But because of all his other mills and everything, he probably had different connections that he could have, you know, he made things out of everything else. Why not grain? Kind of thing. And so he ran out of mills to start. So distillery. Did he have a grain mill? He did not have a grain mill. At least not on my list of mills. Missed opportunity. Missed opportunity. I know. He did have a grist mill, which makes a grist mill, which makes flour. Yeah. So I guess that would be a grain mill, I suppose, because it's making flour. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

I'm gonna play real dumb here. What's the difference between like a gr what's a grist mill versus like a feed mill kind of thing?

SPEAKER_03 19:00

So like a grist mill, a grist is is two stones that run and flatten and turn into flour.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

And the flour that you use for like baking bread.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Yeah, yeah. You're you're selling to people instead of feedless.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

I often I thought all mills, like grain mills, were that type.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

So all mills are different, uh, as just like all corn is different, as I learned. We don't you don't eat dent corn.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

We try not to, yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

And and mills are different for for the in the same uh aspect. So what's the what kind of look at that throwback?

SPEAKER_03 19:33

We haven't talked about den number two in a long time.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

So what's a grain mill look like if it's not the rock the stones?

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Uh maybe they're making grain. So like making uh like like wait, a grain mill's making grain? Like bigger pieces, like for feed or whatever, like making more feed.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

You don't need to grind it down as finely.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Yeah, maybe it's not as fine, or maybe a grain mill doesn't exist and it's all grist. It's all grist, so we just color we're just talking right out of our butts. I have a feeling they're different, though.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

They could be, yeah. I like to think that you don't want to mix your like lesser grains, you don't want to mix your grist with grain, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Yeah, high quality, low quality. We don't want to mix those together. He was also not definitely not the first person to be distilling in that area. Lots of people were distilling in that area.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Was it uh frowned upon at that time period?

SPEAKER_03 20:25

It was still like illegal, it was still mostly illegal. Uh it was a lot of people coming from Pennsylvania. Whiskey started being taxed. We are kind of pre Kentucky's not a state yet. So Kentucky's not a state yet, Pennsylvania is. Taxes are starting to come in. So Pennsylvania distillers are leaving and coming to Kentucky to make their stuff and not have to pay taxes. Because we don't want to pay taxes. We just fought a war about it. We we used to not want to pay for it 30 years before that.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

We used to be big about not paying taxes. Now we just kind of do whatever we're told. Now I make a living off of it.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

If only that they'd be all turning around in their graves.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

You're paying what? We threw the tea over for nothing.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

It was a quarter penny, I believe, is what we threw the tea in for. And now look at us. 30% folks in that realm.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Now, if we're talking pie chart, how much of the pie are we missing?

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Well, be a third. Maybe a third. There'd be a third of the pie, all the pie. Yeah. The American part of this started in 1964. Before that, it didn't have to be American, but in 1964, we decided this is Merca. We're gonna make this just for us.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

So, how did we how did we go about establishing that with other countries? Like, did we go do we like something and say you gotta change your name now? Sorry, Ireland, you can't be making this and call it bourbon because we are bourbon, you're in a different country, you can't have that.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

And what if they had what we'd have thrown like a temperature? Tantrum?

SPEAKER_03 22:01

What do we do? Like threaten them to throw more tea over? Like what's what I'm really sad about is that that didn't happen today. If, like, today we said, like tomorrow, desert July 4th, we're gonna say whiskey act of 2024, bourbon is now American. What would be really cool about that is you would have other countries that have bourbons that have to stop making it, and then still about the collector's market.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

There'd be a problem because people would have have signs that said like all bourbon matters, and there'd be like there'd be like how chauvinistic of you to say all bourbon is American, and and bourbon can be English too, and bourbon can be Japanese. I mean, it would be.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, it would be ridiculous, it would get out of hand.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

But the collector's market would be really fun.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Do you think any other country besides Canada would want to do this much corn?

SPEAKER_03 22:54

Probably not. Or could do this much corn. I know. We will we will talk eventually whenever we get to Irish. That Irish, one of the things that that took Ireland down when they came to their whiskey when they took their really big slump was American corn. And the potatoes and and stuff. So like they were using American corn for a lot of it. Really?

SPEAKER_02 23:18

That's because they didn't have the corn, they had the potatoes, that's why they had potato was used. But like corn, so I was talking to my my parents the other day, they came to visit and I was talking to them about like whiskey, and the fascinating part to me is seeing different cultures and what they like the whiskey for the different countries and cultures is almost designed around that culture. So if the culture doesn't have corn, doesn't love sweets, we're not gonna be making our whiskey out of sweet stuff. It's it's gonna be very hardy, it's gonna be a thinker, right? It's gonna be very much that. You got scotch. Yeah, you look at Irish, it's very much like this is what we have, and we're not looking to really think about it much. We're just looking to we sit down, we finish a bottle, that's what we do. It's it's the centerpiece around why we get together. So it's very basic, not a whole lot of stuff used for it, one and done. Americans are like we got corn, we like our sweets, we love sweets out the wazoo. So our whiskey has to be over half of really sweet stuff, and even then we'd we might add more sweets to it. Like it has to be very, very sweet, and that's bizarre. It's it's bizarre to me because why? Like, I get we had like an abundance of corn. That makes sense why we decided to do whiskey with so much corn, but every other culture that tries our whiskey every country, they're like ungodly sweet. Like, this is so sweet. Like pop, this is like cola sweet, like very sweet, sweet. Which fact it it blows my mind that we even if you look at the trends, right? Rye would kind of be the thing that would bring it down. The most popular ones, like this one, the father of uh bourbon. Granted, this is not the same mash bill that he probably would have used, but it's you know and it's only been around since the 80s, right? It's only 10 rye, so not a whole lot is in there that would bring that sweetness down.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

No, it's it's it's corn forward.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

It is, it is very one-on-one.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

This is very bourbon. I'm glad the mash pill is what it is, because if it was a high rye bourbon and they're trying to pass themselves off as the father of bourbon, well, that doesn't really jive. It doesn't make a lot of sense. So I'm kind of glad that this is as sweet as it is with the story that they're trying to tell with it.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

I'm actually kind of surprised that they haven't, other than like their foolproof stuff, they haven't really expanded upon this brand at all.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

They've really only messed with the proofing, right? I mean, they've done like single barrels or small badge or what, but it's all the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

They could just do a lot with the name. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

They took their shot at Rise. That was their rye is not very good. It's rough. Yeah, it's a rough one.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

It's not terrible, it's just not anything good.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

If you're a big rye drinker, it's not good. If you're like just getting into it, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, it's good for the pro for what the price it is. If you're if you think you like rise, it's probably okay. But if you actually like rice, it's not. We hated it. We hated it.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

It's not my favorite, yeah. If it was higher proof or higher rye content, maybe there's just nothing about it, right? Their toasted barrel was really good.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

And toasted is just really flying right now. Yeah, like there's so many people making toasted barrels, and uh, which again, this one that's what I'm surprised they don't play around with. If their story is all about the char, like, why don't you mess around with different char levels? Yeah, like that would be really interesting, and maybe a fish flavor. Hey, maybe something out there for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

A little bit of fish flavoring, we'll be good to go.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Extra salty. I guess uh uh uh Jefferson's oceans trying to.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

I mean, there's there there's not even any sort of homage paid to like New Orleans or Louisiana.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

There is not, no.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

They could do that, they could easily do like a Mardi Gras uh edition or something, you know, something that goes with the story, but like it's just a wasted opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

It is, yeah. And you said this is this is a Heaven Hill product, right? They don't do huge huge marketing stuff. Yeah, they really don't.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

They kind of name something, they have a little bit of a backstory, and that's it. Like, don't don't ask us about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah, I really like Heaven Hill, I really do. They love to harp on Elijah Craig as being like the they own the kind of founding father for bourbon, they own that company. But this really this bottle, once you get into it, really has nothing to do other than the name. Doesn't have much to do with with the father of bourbon. We don't even know if he was really the father of bourbon, we just latched on to his name and his story. It could very well be he's not the we have no idea who the father of bourbon is, but Heaven Hill has played such a a story about this that everyone just pairs Elijah Craig, Father Bourbon. Therefore, this has to be the best of the best. Like this is the original kind of thing. Now I say all that because there's a company in Ohio, Cincinnati Distilling Company, which I've come to really enjoy their stuff. But if you ever go and take a tour there, they'll talk, uh, depending on which tour guide you get. He'll one of the guys will harp on stories, right? So the owner is actually from the IT realm, but he decided to actually go the true route of distilling, unlike Cleveland. Um, and so he he wanted to to have a story behind it because every other every other company he knows, bourbon company, whiskey company, has something they can tie back to ages from, like the 1700s, right? So he started doing some digging on where their distillery was at and found that so and so used to live there. And so they claimed, oh, this is from they can claim because we're on their property, that it's from that time frame. Like we've been established since then, which isn't really the case for the whiskey, but they can claim it because no one's gonna challenge them and be like, I don't know, that doesn't really sound like it was established back then. It's like this like no one's really gonna challenge you on whether or not this is the original mash bill, no one's really gonna challenge you on was he really the father bourbon. He wants to get into that argument, like no one wants to challenge that, so we just kind of go with it, but we don't really care. That's I guess that's probably the other fun part for me is like Americans just don't care. Like, I feel like Ireland and Scottish people would be like, No, I remember the my great-grandfather used to talk about those days. So-and-so was not around, this is not established. Americans, like, who cares? Like, this tastes good.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

Which comes down to the fact that America is so young. It's we're very young and we and there's a lot of new things. So, because of like 1780s is is in the grand scheme of thing, not that long ago, especially like if you go to Ireland or Scotland and you talk about something in the 1700s, that's that's brand new in a lot of for a lot of areas over there. So France. Yeah, exactly. So, because of that, like when we talk about something that happened then, your grandparents didn't like study Kentucky history unless you were from Kentucky.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Even then, I don't know. Maybe what history, yeah, not a whole lot there.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

There's amazing history in Kentucky and not when you compare it to like we weren't taught anything. It's really sad. There's really cool stories from this area that like nobody knows about, which is so disappointing.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Like what so I know I'm very curious. So I grew up my my hometown was Wakarusa. Like I grew up in between Napani and Wakarusa, and Wakarusa was originally natives, that was the town, and the whole name of Walkarusa came about for the natives was knee deep and mud. And so, like growing up, they always talked about how like cool it was, and I don't think we ever had like a a single original native like around us. It's almost like we drove him out, but we claimed like knee deep and mud, like that that's where we tie our roots to. So, like I'm very curious what stories do we have that are cool? Because I Mad River.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

What Mad River? Yeah, that's uh that would be the the stoking in the ski place, yeah. Yeah, that's an established career. It's it's named after uh Matt Anthony. He was uh colonel uh with us during the war of 1812. And then you also have uh we have Tecumseh, and like people know Tecumseh because of the Tecumseh or Tecumseh?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Is it the same person?

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Tacoma? It's Tecumseh's like a it's like a school.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Tecumsey. Wait, wait, what? Is it school? Isn't there a school named uh like Tecumseh Tecumsey? Tecumsey. I don't know, like a college or something. It could be. Is it around here? I don't know. I've heard of it before. Tecumsey.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Tecumseh has the outdoor play that used to be around. So like people might know that one if you grew up around Ohio. Yeah, there was an outdoor amphitheater that played Tecumseh every year. We also had Blue Jacket, which was another one, it's another Indian near Dayton area. Wait, is that why we have the blue jackets? The blue jackets are named after him. Yeah, I always wonder what the blue jacket name came from. Okay, all right. And uh uh so that all all of that is all War of 1812 is all happening in Ohio and in this area, and George Washington is trying to kick people out of the area, and he got from before a little bit before that. Uh, but yeah, uh there's a ton of Indian history in Ohio. There is like the uh Wine Dot. Yeah, Wine Dot Lake is named after Wine Dots, Seneca County, named after Seneca Indians. There's a lot there's a whole bunch of it, and really cool stuff. And you give I got Shawnee, uh yeah, Shawnee's but like Shawnee does make sense. Uh Jim Bowie? Bowie Bowie Bowie, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Tecumsey?

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Yeah. Uh you know, he settled this whole area. We talk about him as Kentucky, but it's really Kentucky and Ohio. All that history is happening at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Yeah. Yeah. Ohio never got any cred, but to King uh Kentucky really.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

We were just the first wilderness. That's all we were. That's why we're the middle Midwest. But uh it's it's too bad because there's a lot of really cool stuff that people don't know about. A lot of the mountain men, if you hear about mountain men from that area, Jim, Jim Bridges, Jim Bowie.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Old man's cave. Old Man's Cave. That dude, that dude just lived in the cave.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

We we uh if it's not around, we definitely have to create a mountain men brand, a whiskey brand. And each bottle is named named after these different guys, after these different guys.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Yeah, I mean we really Jeremiah Johnson.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Jeremiah Johnson, Jebediah Smith, Jebediah, Jebediah Smith, Jim Bowie, head to the promised land Crockett, we'll have Moonshine as one of them. The the most rednecked possible guy is that's what we're doing after popcorn.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

We could even do one about the outlaw Josie Wales. Outlaw Josie Wales. Because he was a real guy.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

He was I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Was he actually he wasn't real, I don't think. I don't know what's good. I think it's made up.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

I don't think it was though. It could be though. Yeah, probably not. At least based on somebody real. Yeah, it was probably based on somebody at some point.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

Based on the true story of something, yeah. Based off of a true story seems to be just like Elijah Craig, based on a true story.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Now, I will say, Chris talked about there's not a whole lot that they've done with the Elijah Craig lineup. They have barrel proof, toast to barrel, like different ages. Out of all the companies and distilleries that have decided to do barrel proof of some kind, or Elijah Craig has probably been the most popular, I think it has a lot to do with the mash bill. Because even at the high, high proof, you still have a lot of sweetness pulling through that that's what Americans still go after. Like even the newbies want the the sweet, even if it's high proof, they'll still go after it if it's sweet like this.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

This is this is very much a very basic but very good uh introduction into bourbon.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

If I was getting any more basic than this, I would probably think this sounds terrible, but I'm thinking of whiskey. I'm thinking just not bourbon, just kind of a 80-proof early times whiskey.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Like that's well, I I when I think bourbon, a lot of times I think of uh wild turkey 101. And again, I think it's for the same reasons because 101 is a little bit has more punch. If you give somebody a wild turkey 80 proof or a Jim Beam 80 proof, I feel like for me, that is even for somebody who doesn't like bourbon, it's just too spineless. You know what I mean? There's just not enough punch to be like, this is bourbon. So I feel like this actually would be up there recommended with like 101.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

What do you think gives it the punch though?

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Because it's only got 10% right. It's the proof you gotta have bite. For us, it doesn't taste like bite. For us, it just tastes like strength. But for a lot of people, I feel like 80 proof, it tastes like bite, but water. Whereas if you give them you know something with good flavor and proof, it's gonna taste like you know, bite strong.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

So if you were introducing somebody new to bourbon, is this the bottle you give them or is there a different bottle?

SPEAKER_01 36:33

I think like I just like I think this one would be one, I think 101, well turkey 101. I think anything in the Jim Beam lineup would be good. I just think some things would be better than others. I feel like a lot of times if you had somebody that was like brand new in a bourbon and you gave them like a Jim Beam white label, the problem is they're not gonna understand the correlation between the thinness and the proof. They're just just gonna come across as like yuck to them. There's just not enough flavor there for it not to be yuck to them. I think. But I mean, I think there's flavor there, it just takes a while to learn that flavor.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Such a hard question to answer for me because immediately I think Buffalo Trace just because it's it's it's it's basic. It is just it's no harm, no foul kind of basic lineup that you can give them from Sazrak. But it also it starts them out almost kind of look like what Chris was saying. If we start them out with watery kind of thing, that's what they're gonna think of. So if we start them out with Buffalo Trace, it's just run-of-the-mill, no everyday drinker, no thinker kind of feel to where you give them this and like, ooh, this is so bitey. Like this is it's not it's not really bitey, like we're we're talking roughly the same mash bill, but a little bit different, higher, like proof-wise, age-wise, that might all take into account on flavor and bite.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

With that, would it make more sense to give somebody something that's maybe a little bit higher proof with more power to it that is on ice or just a little bit of water added to it? So now you're proving it down a little, but you still have the complexity. That's not a bad idea.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Would that be that's actually not a bad idea?

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Would that be the probably a good way of going about it then? Because it yeah, you're right. If you go with an 80-proof or something basic, then you you get the burn, but you don't get any flavor. And so, you know, not always, but a lot of times.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

We haven't really talked about adding ice or water or anything.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

It's it's because it's so subjective. Like it really is uh two drops for me might be too much for you, or not enough for you, or uh there's so much variation given every glass and every we can agree adding ice does change the flavor and why and water, yeah. I think changing everyone, yeah, changing temperature and changing uh uh you know the flu the amount of water that's in there, it's present in there, whether and it's over time or not. Yeah, but I mean it also comes down to like how much is in my glass versus how much is in your glass. So like I can't say two drops is gonna be the same for me as it is gonna be for you, unless you've measured everything out. Yeah. So it's just it's so finicky.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

And at that point, if we're measuring everything out, my mind I'm becoming too legalistic. Like, this is not a legalistic drink. This is this is very much like what are you feeling in the moment?

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Sometimes I feel like I'm turning my nose up, like it's like no, we're making this too much. You know what I mean? Uh we're overcomplicating this.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

This is just meant to be drink and enjoyment. Yeah, it's not a cocktail. Yeah, but I'm to measure it.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

So, like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to be like that with it. Like, like anybody that's gonna take uh, you know, we've talked about this, but like when you take like when you spit out your your whiskey when you're doing like a taste test. If you have a spittoon for your taste testing, get the F out of here, dude. Like, I don't want you around me. Like, if you can't drink, if you can't swallow it, either stop or or just don't do it altogether. Like, I'm not saying everybody can hang, but you don't need a spittoon. Like, that's some weird stuff, you know. Like, I'd rather you just be like, I'm done. Like, that was good. I enjoyed what I had. You start spitting stuff out in front of me. I'm gonna be like, dude, get out of here. Yeah, it's just just weird, you know. Like, but yeah, I mean, I I do think that it does change the flavor. I mean, it absolutely changes the flavor, just not always for the best. And you can, it's so quick to ruin something. Yeah, like, oh, this tastes good. Let's just add one more drop. No, now it tastes like crap. Like, tastes totally like junk.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Yeah, and that's the hard part. If you're dealing with anything under like barrel strength, adding more water to it or like different things to it, really can take a turn for the worse. Yeah, because you you already gotta think, they've they've been proofing it down. They already added a lot of water to proof it down to where it is for flavor, like down to that proof point, right at the right amount of flavor, it doesn't get any worse. So they've gone through all those trials and errors. So why trial and error even more to try to get something more water down? Like, what are you looking for at that point? Like, I get barrel strength, you're trying to figure out okay, what can I take it down to that? I'm like, this is right proof point to right flavor. But if I'm already talking 94 proof, how much farther can I go down where I'm compromising flavor for less proof on this?

SPEAKER_03 41:30

I'd be curious if uh uh people that do that, the the samplers, the people that are trying to pick the flavor, if they account for water or not, like for is this the my my normal drinker of this glass, are they gonna add ice or are they gonna drink this neat? Right. And how much they think about that. If you think your normal customer is gonna add ice, then you're gonna pick something and then back it off a little bit more, and so, or take a little less water out, or yeah, put a little less water in, and if you're expecting neat, then you wouldn't do that. So I'd be curious if that like if that crosses their mind or if they think about that or not.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

You know, another thing we didn't talk about, I haven't touched on yet? Small batch. Elijah Craig is big on small batch, their original, they could just call it straight bourbon, right? But it's all of it is Elijah Craig's small batch.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Which is not defined small, not like single barrel. Yeah. Single barrel is defined one one barrel. But when Elijah Craig's small batch came out, that's when the small batch was the thing, right? Everything coming out, what was that, 2016, 2017? Everything coming out was like small batch this, small batch that. Before people like caught on to like small batch doesn't mean anything, right? And that and I was like one of the first ones to say that. Like, I I've well, I mean, not you know, for everybody, but like I to me and you, I remember remember I said how small can it be? How is Jim Beam doing anything small batch? They're not, they're not. This is bull crap. And then we were we researched it. We're like, yeah, that's it's not even a defined term, it's it's nonsense. It's a it's a gimmick, it's a marketing gimmick. Yeah, because you look at so many like even heaven hell, I love that I love them to death, but there's nothing small batch about Elijah Craig, like nothing. Like, just look at the shelf. Like, what about that? It's a small batch to you. If you can go to any liquor store and get it, not small batch, not small batch from one of the biggest distilleries around, pumping it out. It's everywhere all over the country. What is about that is small? You tell me how many bottles you make a year, and I'll tell you if it's small patch or not.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

We've had, I think it's safe to say we've had whiskey from just about every other country on the podcast. Have you well, most of the big ones anyway? Have you ever seen small batch anywhere on those bottles or talked about small? Batch at all for advertisement. Nope.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Well, most other countries blend. So you're not aiming for small batch. It's a different market. It's a numbers.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

I guess they blend too. Elijah Craig blends into it. So what's it's an American thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

It's just like limited edition. We love limited edition. And I I love limited edition. But if you have like only 1 billion bottles made, it's like, is that limited edition? Oh, I got number 500 and 5,672 out of 1 billion. Like, is that how is that limited? Like it's not, you know, limited should be like limited to like 5,000 at the most. You know, like even like 10,000 is not limited edition. It's not.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Personally, I would say small batch should only be reserved for craft distilleries. Because they're the only ones in my mind that can do a true small batch.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

And unless you did it as a big company, but you put how many you made. Again, like I feel like uh Jim Beam could do a small batch if they limited production to so many hundreds of barrels or something like that. You know, hundreds so so many thousands of bottles. Say 2,000 bottles for Jim Beam would be a small batch of these bottles. But even then they'd get around it by using something they've made hundreds of barrels of. You know what I mean? They would just put the numbers on there different, I feel like. I feel like you're probably right, Nick. I think it should be limited to like the smaller distilleries, it just never will be.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

I don't think it ever will be. Because it is it's a very much a marketing thing. It's a marketing thing. It is because it feels when you see small batch on there, you're like, ooh, this this is very unique. Not everything's gonna taste the same. Like there's gonna be some differences between this bottle and that bottle. It's like people and that's small, that's a single barrel. Well, it's like people saying, like, ooh, Blayton's one bottle from here is gonna taste different from this one. I don't know. Like they're they're designed to be single barrel.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

It's like theory, it should be like really very similar from one bottle to the next.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

They've tried their hardest to be the original single barrel that tastes all the same. So you can claim that it's all different, but how much of it is just in your brain perception of like this has to be different versus it's all the same. Uh that's where the small batch kind of it's the it's the single barrels for those that aren't doing single barrels. Right. It it is very much that.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Well, I think we agree. Elijah Craig is good, it's a pretty good starter, bourbon. Be a good one to start with, and bourbon itself is a good starter. It's like nice and sweet, easy to drink. And then when you're ready to grow up, do it some other things.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Before bourbon, would you say that white lightning moonshine was the big thing? Or was that kind of after bourbon?

SPEAKER_03 46:49

In the US, like for production? Yes. No, rye. Yeah, it was rye. It was rye first. And then after Rye would have probably been. I mean, I get like white lightning. I don't think white lightning was ever super duper popular.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Like white, like that, it was always used as whatever they could. Additive and or for other things.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

People that were drinking white lightning or moonshine, it would be the equivalent of somebody using like street drugs. You know what I mean? Like it's it, they were doing it for the fix. They were never sitting down and and and tasting a moonshine. They wanted pure, they wanted powerful, and they wanted high pro like high octane, high proof, and they wanted the effects. You were drinking for the effects at the cost of possibly your vision and your kidney health and your liver health and and the law, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:41

And the reason I ask that is you you look at like most movies that have some kind of history involved with them. Yeah, they're like the westerns, it's always moonshine. It's always it's always moonshine. It's never bourbon, always moonshine. So is that played up or is that reality? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 47:58

Like it's it's played up. Um now there might be some truth to it in like the westerns, because you wouldn't have traveled, you're like, you wouldn't have sent whiskey out west, you would have gone out west and made whiskey. And so, because you wouldn't be able to travel with that much, right? And so you'd be making it as you go, kind of thing. And white lightning is travel with it, it just doesn't last the last long and it's short, it doesn't take long to make it, you don't have to let it sit or anything like that. Um but yeah, it would have been, I mean, early America would have been rum and rye, and then rum. Yeah, rum. Okay, and all it came with the slave trade. It was just kind of the the other thing that came along with it. Um Rye was the first one that like we made.

unknown 48:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

And then eventually it became bourbon. It'll be an interesting series from going from this guy, the the what kind of what we would call a basic or a more a more normal or entry-level bourbon, yeah, and where we kind of take it from there.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

It is fascinating, like as you look at some of these craft distilleries going into like a series of 101s, like you look at the basic, this is kind of what we got started with, to what some of these craft distilleries are now kind of experimenting with and doing, uh it's starting to create a whole different chapter almost for American bourbon and American whiskey, which is fun to watch. It's they've got a cult following, but they can't get everyone behind them, which I wish they could get more behind them. But you've got your everyday kind of drinkers that your big namers always make, and everyone's gonna know.

unknown 49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

But then you got the ones that are trying not to be cookie cutter that are really starting to form their own chapter in kind of a book history of of bourbon, which is fun. Yeah, that'll be fun to look at and experience.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

And very thankful to whoever made the rules for bourbon that they made them as malleable as they did. Like you can do a lot of things with the flavor of bourbon and keep it within that that context.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Very much so.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Yeah. Awesome, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Well, until next time.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Yeah, next time. Thank you for listening to the podcast. If you want more great content and other perks, be sure to support the show by clicking the link in the show notes. We can be reached on our website, whiskeychasterspapa.com, with any ideas for the show. Thanks again.